Ethics and standards for photographing a family wedding

I'm on the other end, not a protographer, but the client so to speak. My situation is my sister's partner offered to take photos of my daughter's wedding as a family member. It was an informal agreement in that there was no contract. She is just starting to do photography, had never done a wedding shoot and wanted the practice. It was to benefit us both, her in gaining experience and myself in that I would have photos of the wedding at a reduced cost. In order to shoot the wedding she needed a piece of equipment (flash) so we agreed that I would pay her $300.00 so that she could purchase the flash and the photos taken would be mine, she had agreed to provide me with a disk of all photos. She has since read an article about on the copyright laws, and talked with a friend who is a professional photographer and is now refusing to provide the disk and is asking$150.00 for prints that she will put into a proof book. I'm disapointed in how this is turning out, I realize my mistake in not having a written agreement, but I thought I was dealing with family. Do I have any recourse, are there standards and ethics that most photograpers abide by? She has since posted a few of the photos on her new business website along with her friend, and I have yet to have any of the photos. Any advice would be appreciated.

Morninglory

Legally, it depends on the jurisdiction in which you live. I'd suggest talking to a lawyer about it or check out your local consumer affairs web site for the laws in your jurisdiction. It sounds like you have a verbal contract and they can be tricky at the best of times.

However, as the photographer is essentially a family member the situation is probably one that is worth trying to resolve informally.

Both you and the photographer probably should be considering whether the $ in question are worth the affect it will potentially have on family relations.

Good luck with it!

I would speak with her and everyone involved in the original aggreement. You have no photos and she has a flash but she also does not have a model release, a business lic. so she really can't even use the photos for a portfolio or any other use. If she wants referrals who is she going to call with only one wedding under her belt.

She needs to understand that she is not operating a business and that if this gets anymore drawn out by law it can hurt everyone.

good luck

Small claims court would be your only recourse to get the files I believe however, your not dealing with someone who has one ounce of morals. Since it may be a she said he said case where neither party has any proof to support their case, who knows what a judge will say.

She has a new flash, you don't have any pictures of your daughters wedding. She wins and you lost plain and simple.

Now how do you go about, I hate to say this but, getting even? Go to that website and anyone who is in any images which are displayed should contact her and send her a cease and desist letter by registered/return receipt requested letter. Explain that she is displaying images to promote a business which would constitute an advertising use of the images of this wedding and no release for the right to do this exists. If she wants to go back on the agreement and play hard ball, you get your bat out and take a few swings yourself.
Also findout who the website is hosted by and send them a register/RRR letter explaining that the images being used are done without permission and legal action may soon follow. I wonder how her "professional photographer" friend is going to feel when he tries to bring up his website only to find it has been shut down?

Another solution would be to get the proof book, order what prints you want and once you get them start spreading the word about how this deal went south on you and she is not someone you would do business with again.

I am sorry but it is people like her who give everyone in this business a bad name. Once you agree to a price, you stick to it. What would she do if you took her to court asking for her to return the flash because you bought it for her to "use" during the wedding, not to keep?

I feel for ya man, there is nothing worse than someone who only knows enough to get themselves in trouble. I'd talk to that "pro" photographer friend of hers and first ask if they can do anything about it, since she obviously values their opinion more than her family. If they refuse to help, I'd probably hit them, but I'm a violent guy and I by no means suggest you do that. The second best alternative would be to hit them financially but doing what IndyJeff suggests.

But in all honesty, I'd really try to resolve this without getting people outside the family involved. It is reasons like this that I get a written agreement for everything that concerns money. I really look forward to hearing how this gets resolved.

oh and as a final recourse you could try some ninja action. find out where she keeps the files of these pictures and get them, then delete them and tell her you want to buy prints and see what she does. ofcourse this envolved a bluff that she doesn't have a backup of the files, but you could always say you changed your mind. But I would seriously consider getting them thru means that aren't exactly on the up and up.

I would recommend talking to her, if not then talk to the legal side of things, it sounds like this is a sorry situation!

Sorry to hear this, hope you have some success!

Talk with her, spell out what the original agreement was. Tell her you don't think she's being professional & keeping to it. Hear her reasoning, then tell her that she has no model release for using the photos on her website whatsover and explain what a release is (if she doesn't know).

If her friend is a pro she should have spoken to him BEFORE agreeing anything with you. He/she should also have told her how to act professional as well as told her she's not allowed to use the photos online without your consent.

If she's being unreasonable, follow IndyJeff's advice.

I'm feeling sorry for you and for your sister... actually not that much for her, since it's actually her fault. I completely understand your point and to be honest, I would never even think about signing contract with my brother. I mean it's family!!! But obviously it's not the case everytime and some people really rather lose family over $150
But family or no family when it comes to ethics... I keep my promise even if I don't have signed contract. If we agree to something it's done for me, but just because of people like your sister, her friend and especially her "pro" photographer friend are, I try not to do business without signed contracts anymore. And I don't think ethics would do much if you would go to court. But I'm not lawyer so I can't be much of help here.
But as few already suggested... try to solve this without court... it's family afterall. And if nothing else... pay those $150 (even if she got flash already) so you have at least photos from your daughter and her wedding and well... sister like that wouldn't be my sister anymore. Sorry to say that.

primoz wrote in post #2280018
I'm feeling sorry for you and for your sister... actually not that much for her, since it's actually her fault. I completely understand your point and to be honest, I would never even think about signing contract with my brother. I mean it's family!!! But obviously it's not the case everytime and some people really rather lose family over $150
But family or no family when it comes to ethics... I keep my promise even if I don't have signed contract. If we agree to something it's done for me, but just because of people like your sister, her friend and especially her "pro" photographer friend are, I try not to do business without signed contracts anymore. And I don't think ethics would do much if you would go to court. But I'm not lawyer so I can't be much of help here.
But as few already suggested... try to solve this without court... it's family afterall. And if nothing else... pay those $150 (even if she got flash already) so you have at least photos from your daughter and her wedding and well... sister like that wouldn't be my sister anymore. Sorry to say that.

Eh, why so hard on the sister?? She wasn't the one taking the photos, her partner was. Actually, perhaps going through the sister may not be such a bad idea either. I would probably have asked the sister why her partner was acting like this. Perhaps the sister can get her partner to see your pov.

This really does stink. I have two sisters and one I would not question for a moment that she would live up to her word. The other one, I'm not so sure about. In the end, it is family and is really worth going to a lawyer, small claims court etc. Particularly before you have exhausted all efforts to remedy the situation. I guess the thing one would have to take in mnid is that whatever actions you take now can or could affect your relationship for quite awhile.

It would appear that you are now being treated like any other customer (or close to it). How many prints (dollar wise) were you planning on spending. Given that you are being treated like this, deduct the cost of the flash unit, shipping and maybe pad it a bit from the cost of the prints that you order. As a photographer then she should have been prepared to shoot the wedding and this would have included appropriate lighting (read flash).

I think that it is pretty common place for a great number of photographers display images on their sites without specific model releases from the subjects. Hell I used to. I used to shoot weddings without contracts years ago but not anymore, everything is locked up nice and legal. You might be able to use this whole experience to give her a shot of a learning experience of what can happen when you screw one your customers.

Besides what has already been said (Good stuff there), my thoughts:

WAY too late to change the terms, it's been shot as a "Work-for-Hire" & paid for ($300). Tell her to read those laws, which leave her no (C)rights at all. And... My situation is my sister's partner, so your sister was acting as your "Agent", which is a whole 'nother can 'o worms legally & obligates both your sister & her partner if you threaten small claims court. You might ask if thier "Errors & Omissions" policy is up to date & see what the reaction to that question is?

I have done 3 weddings for family and friends, this was our gift to them as they had limited funds. All parties were very grateful!! I would never think to do such a thing. Many options mentioned above have valid points...however legal action not in anyone interest and expensive. Certainly request your "payment " back and get her flash back...then of course charge her a "rental" fee for the unit as well ( approximately the exact cost of the proofs!!!). Also notify her that IRS may be interested in her new business. This will make for an interesting holiday season for your family....to bad she is clueless as to the damage she has done!

First off, you arent really dealing with "family," you're dealing with not much more than a friend of your sister. That isnt family in my book "partner" or not.

Try to talk it out first, try to use your sister to reason with her, but if that has already been exhausted then you have no recourse except to go legal.

Fist off, as Jeff suggested, she has NO RIGHTS to display those images, copyright or not. They have images of your friends and family in them and, just as you dont have a contract stating you get your photos, she has no contract stating that she can use the images of those people without a model release.

I would have everyone you know in those photos send cease and desist letters immediately stating that they will follow up with legal action if she doesnt comply. I would also find out who the ISP is and send them a letter stating that there are images being displayed that do not have the proper rights to be displayed. Watch how fast the ISP shuts that site down, they do not mess with anything having to do with copyright issues at all.

In the end, unfortunately, you got played and she wins. I would use your connection with your sister to really put pressure on her partner to do the right thing. Its about the only thing you can really do at this point.

And to answer your question, YES, most photographers do have a code of ethics we work by and would stand by our agreements, written or verbal, but unfortunately, not everyone in this world, photographers included, will live by those same ethics.

vwpilot wrote in post #2281163
First off, you arent really dealing with "family," you're dealing with not much more than a friend of your sister. That isnt family in my book "partner" or not.
In the end, unfortunately, you got played and she wins. I would use your connection with your sister to really put pressure on her partner to do the right thing. Its about the only thing you can really do at this point.

I don't want to get into politics or anything, but if with "partner" you mean what I think you mean, then every family count their relatives' boyfriend/girlfriend in different ways. Some count them as family right away, others don't until they're living together or married, and others don't ever count them as family. Depending on the poster's definition of "family", it may be tough for him to be tough with this girl as she, after all, is his sister's partner.

I think definitely try to speak to her first, then go via the sister. If neither work, then decide if you want to fall out with her because of this, and decide how it may affect your relationship to your sister etc. If she absolutely refuses to give you the photos, then pay the money (if risk is you may fall out with your sister), but make sure you're not happy with it all and be honest when telling others about her, in short - don't recommend her.

IndyJeff wrote in post #2279367
Small claims court would be your only recourse to get the files I believe however, your not dealing with someone who has one ounce of morals. Since it may be a she said he said case where neither party has any proof to support their case, who knows what a judge will say.

She has a new flash, you don't have any pictures of your daughters wedding. She wins and you lost plain and simple.

Now how do you go about, I hate to say this but, getting even? Go to that website and anyone who is in any images which are displayed should contact her and send her a cease and desist letter by registered/return receipt requested letter. Explain that she is displaying images to promote a business which would constitute an advertising use of the images of this wedding and no release for the right to do this exists. If she wants to go back on the agreement and play hard ball, you get your bat out and take a few swings yourself.
Also findout who the website is hosted by and send them a register/RRR letter explaining that the images being used are done without permission and legal action may soon follow. I wonder how her "professional photographer" friend is going to feel when he tries to bring up his website only to find it has been shut down?

Another solution would be to get the proof book, order what prints you want and once you get them start spreading the word about how this deal went south on you and she is not someone you would do business with again.

I am sorry but it is people like her who give everyone in this business a bad name. Once you agree to a price, you stick to it. What would she do if you took her to court asking for her to return the flash because you bought it for her to "use" during the wedding, not to keep?

I agree with everything here.

Right now, she has a $300 flash, and you have nothing but a headache, and no pictures.