Am I "low-balling"?

Elaine,

Some very well made points here. To the note above about things being rocket scince,the whole notion that great equipment makes for great photography is dissproven here daily. I am not referring to anyone in particular, but there is a whole lot more to making great imagery then having good equipment. Thankfully for the pros and aspiring pros there is a whole lot more to it then just equipment becoming cheap. Which leads me to my second thought... if you really are going to be getting into this, you need to really figure out what your real cost of doing business is. Your going to need to have backup of nearly everything. They are going to need to be serviced in order to be reliable - I have had 3 cameras in this year alone for service. That will cost you money. As you progress, you will need more lighting equipment to take it to that next level, reflectors, heads, stands, etc. That will cost you money. Then you need to look at a business license, insurance, etc... it all starts eating away at it.

I whole heartadly agree that you should not charge full till while your in learning mode. But you also need to be carefull, like you have stated, that you are not using price as a selling vehicle. If it comes down to price... you are going to loose. There is alway someone willing to do it for less. Focus on quality. Make that the focus of the conversation. If the customer is not interested in quality, I am not interested in them. I don't want to have to get into a bidding scenerio - ever.

As a photographer, your name is your reputation. Make sure you are branding yourself in a way that you feel comfortable with. Remember, it will be VERY hard to re-brand yourself later. It is better to walk from work then do anything that would diminish that value of your name brand. Good luck. It sounds like your looking at the right things.

thrumyeye wrote in post #2278745
But, that is what Super WalMart and other bulk stores do, don't they? Nothing against Super WalMart...

Check their profit, their stock, and the billions of sales there. Obviously they are doing it right! Capitalism is a take no prisoner business, as long as you stay within the law, and are honest, that, my friend, is the objective, make money and enjoy it. WalMart does nothing wrong in their business model, IMHO and those who continually whine about them may want socialism or communism more than capitalism, and those are NOT a systems I want to live under, as they simply reward the incompetent and the lazy instead of the energetic and hard working folks.

joegolf68 wrote in post #2292338
Check their profit, their stock, and the billions of sales there. Obviously they are doing it right! Capitalism is a take no prisoner business, as long as you stay within the law, and are honest, that, my friend, is the objective, make money and enjoy it. WalMart does nothing wrong in their business model, IMHO and those who continually whine about them may want socialism or communism more than capitalism, and those are NOT a systems I want to live under, as they simply reward the incompetent and the lazy instead of the energetic and hard working folks.

Joegolf68,

Just checking, but if you love Walmart business models so much how can you possibly be anti-communist? Last time I looked, over 90% of the material sold by Walmart is made in the Peoples Republic Of China!!

So, by buying there, you directly support communists. I shop there as little as possible. I do everything I can to support the true American businesses, Small business. Walmart moves into an area and decimates small family owned businesses. Folks who are Americans, who pour their entire lives into their stores and business, lose everthing they have worked for.

Do you own a small business? Have you ever had to put your entire financial future on your skills with a camera?

I respect that you are a disabled, retired firefighter, but if you are not familier with our industry perhaps you can watch and see more before giving advice to up and coming professional photographers. Please find out about what our issues are and how they effect our ability to make a living.

Just some food for thought,

Les Baldwin

To the OP, I would agree with the points of setting your prices where you feel comfortable setting them, regardless of the prices of other photogs in the area. If you think you have priced yourself accordingly in regards to your skill/ability and overhead costs, then you have no need to feel like you are "low-balling."

liza wrote in post #2291679
(1)There are also a lot of them that aren't.
(2)I'm our high school yearbook adviser as well as a portrait photographer and have seen some positively atrocious images coming from "amateurs entering the business."
(3)Perhaps you don't have to be a rocket scientist, but you do have to have some expertise with the equipment as well as something else many newcomers lack...artistry.

1)I agree to a point that a lot of newcomers are not very competent photography wise, however I would say that this holds true for many pros as well, since in photography (unlike pro sports, etc) being a "pro" tends only to signify making a living off photography, not being competent at it. Obviously the more competent you are the more success you will have, but just as being a newcomer doesnt guarantee being incompetent, being a pro does not guarantee being competent

2) Ouch, I hope your advisees don't take this personally.

3)I agree wholeheartedly that you don't have to be a rocket scientist and that you need to have expertise. As to "artistry," since it cannot be quantifiably measured and is entirely subjective, whether or not a newcomer or even a pro lack or do not lack it is up to the viewer/customer, and does not really lend much support to your argument.

ssim wrote in post #2291823
(1) Herein lies the problem. Anyone can take a picture, only a photographer can capture a memory. There is a huge difference.

(2)You are right that there many people buying the new digital cameras and entering the market. The problem is that they want to earn enogh cash to buy that new lens, the engagement ring for their girlfriend or whatever, they do not treat it like a business and if I am buying a service from someone I want to be treated like a customer.

(3)It is not going to happen often but it will. That "it" is the fact that the new entrant weekend warriors are ill equipped in most cases to handle large events such as weddings. Too many go into these once in a lifetime events with one camera body which is courting a catastrophe. Bodies break, they don't let you know in advance when that will be.

1) By photographer do you mean "pro"? Because in my experience, most pictures have a memory attached to them, thus using this alone to determine "photographer" status means everyone would be a photographer . I would expect the pros photos to be better exposed & composed than your average picture taker, but do not think this statement holds water.

2) What exactly is your argument here? How do you see the amateur looking to find a way to buy a new lense, etc any different than a "pro" looking to make income from photography. How is it that they don't treat it like a business? Or you like a customer? In regards to business practices, having good ones and/or treating customers well is independent of whether they are pro or amateur, but should be the goal of every business person.

3) You are absolutely correct, you should definitely be properly equipped before accepting jobs or find a way to properly equip yourself by renting/borrowing.

LBaldwin wrote in post #2291861
JON

(1) As just one of the many 'rocket scientists" I am really insulted by your statement. I have been a photographer for 30 long and wonderful years.
You have no clue at all what it takes to create and sell wonderful images to clients who know the diff between a button pusher and a real photographer.

(2)It is not now, nor has it ever been in the camera. A camera cannot tell you if the pics you are about to take are going to suck or not. And it's not if they enter the business, but if they last more than a year, or 5 years.

(3)Please show us your fantistic, cheap images.

Les Baldwin

1) Why take offense? His statement was true, you do not actually have to be a rocket scientist to take good photos. Know the principles of photography, yes, understand thermodynamics, engineering and physics, no (although it probably does not hurt Congratulations on 30 years, but why the attack? What exactly is a real photographer? At what point does a button pusher become a photographer? When their images are properly exposed and composed? When their images wow friends and family? When people want to buy their photography? When they earn a photography degree? When their photography studio turns a profit? I would really like to know the magical point when a button pusher become a photographer because it seems like for a lot of pros, people do not become "photographers" until they charge high prices for it. Charge low prices, you're a hack and disgrace to photography. Charge high prices, well then welcome to the club and heres the secret handshake.

2) Agreed

3) Please show us your crappy, expensive images then. Why are fantastic and cheap mutually exclusive? What you are implying is that fantastic images must be expensive in order to be fantastic, as if expensive is a property of fantastic and cheap is a property of crappy or something. Since "fantastic" is subjective, Joe Schmo photog with very little experience and only a 35 mm disposable can take fantastic AND cheap images. Just because your images cost more to produce and you sell them for more in no way makes them more fantastic.

thrumyeye wrote in post #2278745
Thank you for your input. Yes, I always want to keep my family first, but looking at both sides of this, I wouldn't want to be on the other side of it - being undercut by competition just because they wanted to. But, that is what Super WalMart and other bulk stores do, don't they? Nothing against Super WalMart...

While it is nice to show concern for your fellow photogs, to be successful at business you have to worry about making your business a success, not about keeping their business afloat.

LBaldwin wrote in post #2292711
(1) I do everything I can to support the true American businesses, Small business.

(2) Walmart moves into an area and decimates small family owned businesses. Folks who are Americans, who pour their entire lives into their stores and business, lose everthing they have worked for.

(3) Do you own a small business? Have you ever had to put your entire financial future on your skills with a camera? ...if you are not familier with our industry perhaps you can watch and see more before giving advice to up and coming professional photographers. Please find out about what our issues are and how they effect our ability to make a living.

Just some food for thought,

Les Baldwin

1) Nice sentiment, but could be part of what keeps overhead high for your business.

2) Baloney. Walmart has not to my knowledge ever directly put any mom/pop shops out of business, unless they were a supplier/wholesaler to Walmart and Walmart stopped buying from them or forced them to undercut themselves to keep the contract. Walmart is not the causation of these shops closing, but rather an associated. I say associated with the close of mom/pop shops because it is not Walmart who does this, but the consumers in that town who CHOOSE to shop there. They are not forced and if they all had actual loyalty mom/pop shops, Walmart would not be able to florish as it has.

3) Why exactly does it matter whether he has or not? It is not up to everyone else to make your business a success. It is up to you. Most of the advice I have seen on here so far has been "price yourself at what the rest of photog's in your area are at or stay out of business until you can" along with "do not charge less because it hurts other photographers AND cheapens your photography and photography as a whole." I agree that you should not go into business if you are not ready, but most of this "advice" seems to be less concerned with an individual making it as a business and more concerned keeping other photogs in business and prices high.

However you choose to price your services is up to you and it is up to the other guy to adjust, as long as you are not using unfair business practices (badmouthing, etc.) Low cost leadership is perfectly legal AND ethical. Does it sometimes hurt others in the same business? Yes but if you can provide the same services for less, then you have nothing to feel bad about. And if you provide less services for less, how is this undercutting or lowballing?

How the heck did this become about Walmart? Walmart is the king of commodity products with minimal selection and service. Nothing wrong with that if your buying/selling toilet paper, but I hope were all striving for something more then that here.

We are getting way off track here kiddies.

joegolf68 wrote in post #2292338
Check their profit, their stock, and the billions of sales there. Obviously they are doing it right! Capitalism is a take no prisoner business, as long as you stay within the law, and are honest, that, my friend, is the objective, make money and enjoy it. WalMart does nothing wrong in their business model, IMHO and those who continually whine about them may want socialism or communism more than capitalism, and those are NOT a systems I want to live under, as they simply reward the incompetent and the lazy instead of the energetic and hard working folks.

Photo studios in those *marts are a loss leader to get customers into the store where they can shop, shop, shop the day away. They are not profit centers. They certainly are not high quality either. They cater to the low end market. They also don't offer wedding services.

A professional wedding and portrait photographer doesn't have a retail sales arm to make the real money. They have the photography. That's where it stops. They have to provide quality. They cater to the customers who would rather not have a Wal-Mart wedding. Customers who value quality and personal attention.

I was hired (but did not take the job) to work at a Sears Portrait Studio. The training manual had the camera settings written down in it, with measurements for the light-to-subject distance. The manager told me they are allowed 15 minutes to get a child to smile, or they just snap whatever they get without a smile. They pay just a shade over minimum wage to start. Do you really want to own a business and only pay yourself minimum wage? No? Sorry but that's the reality if you follow the *mart model.

I recently took a 'designing wedding photography' course. One of the discussion questions was "What should NOT be a factor in figuring your price?" We came up with answers like...size of wedding party, age or attractiveness of client etc.
The instructor finally stressed the answer he was looking for...Experience.

Someone mentioned it already...but you have to be careful with low pricing. Lets say you charge $500 for your service...and you do a great job and give them everything you can. What would you then do for $1000...$2000 etc. When you rely on word of mouth...you can't just double your prices without alienating your clients.

I did not say everyone who picks up a camera can take good pictures. I was stating a fact that taking "good" pictures is not as difficult as "Rocket Science" or some other profession that takes years to Master. Give me 8 hours with someone who has a half an eye for photography and I can have them shooting acceptable photos. Principals of photography are not that difficult of a concept.

Someone with a good business head and can take a decent photo will be a lot more successful than someone who takes great photos and could not manage there own name ....In general.

There are a lot of sharp people out there in business- entrepreneurs . I have been in business for my self for the last 20 years owning numerous business. I know how technology opens up opportunity for entrepreneurs to enter into areas that otherwise would have been more difficult. With the price of high quality camera equipment becoming more accessible and reasonably priced you are going to see a lot of "Prosumers" entering the market. Some will have the eye and some will not. You take away the ones who don't have the eye you are still going to have a lot of people doing it. I can give you a perfect example. 20 years ago there was a print shop on every corner. They are all gone today except for the big print houses. The reason. Technology and the availability of consumer priced printers and computers. Believe me. Camera's will advance to the point where all you need to know is composition. Artificial light and the camera's ability to use that light correctly will no longer become one of the more difficult variables. Making photography that much easier.

I don't have a dog in this fight. It is just my observation. Photography is just a serious hobby of mine that I have been doing for the last 30 years. I really enjoy reading a lot of post here. I am also amazed buy some of the over inflated ego's a handful of people here have. The same handful of people who are so condescending to people who come here looking for a little help. If this offends you then I guess you know who you are.

Jon

Back to Walmart... Walmart is successful largely to it's distribution strategy. When you can move product cheaper, you can either pocket the profit or sell your product cheaper. Cheaper prices increases demand, increased demand means more sales which in turn brings in more money. That's the jist of it... I think, but I'm not my own boss and I'm not a business major, so I could be totally wrong

Anyways, the same concept could be applied to a photography business. In this case, time is money. If you can reduce the time spent on creating an end result while keeping the end result the same and are getting paid a set price regardless of your time spent; you can either enjoy your extra free time or take on more clients to move more product.

If there aren't more clients at your price point, prices can always be adjusted to be more attractive to clients that may not have previously been interested. The wonders of operating in a free marketplace.

[QUOTE=tofuboy;2299059​]Back to Walmart... Walmart is successful largely to it's distribution strategy. When you can move product cheaper, you can either pocket the profit or sell your product cheaper. Cheaper prices increases demand, increased demand means more sales which in turn brings in more money. That's the jist of it... I think, but I'm not my own boss and I'm not a business major, so I could be totally wrong quote]

Close, But lower prices do not increase demand. They just allow you to fill more of the demand or increase your market share. Disposable income is in general a fixed amount. Wal-mart is successful because they excel at the golden rule of business "maximize profits". Wal-Marts Marketing strategy is to sell on high volume with small margins. And on the other end of the spectrum is sell at high prices with lower volume. This of course is a very simplified explanation.

This also carries over to photography. A photographer who charges higher prices may only have 7 shoots a month verses a cut-rate photographer who has 15 shoots a month. In general economic principles. So in conclusion you should always base what you charge for your service by determining what your time is worth. That is how you maximize your profits as a sole proprietor.

Jon

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OS220sl (jon).... Your point on basic economic factors, at least in general, is valid. In so far as cost/volume/profit in general, for commerce, you have stated the obvious, however simplified.

Dropping back to the OP. The 'specialty event' situation we originally started with brings into play a couple of critical factors that every photographer experiences, on each occasion.

A feeling of confidence must be established in the buyers mind(s) at the onset of negotiations, on through delivery of the final product. If that confidence wavers the whole deal is weakened.

The initial conversation will map out and set the scene for what follows. The photographer MUST exhibit self confidence both by words, actions, and appearance in order for this to work. By doing this, he creates perceived value in the mind of the buyer. The photog may have doubts in his own mind but, this cannot extend out to the potential client.

It's a game guys, it's all a game.

I might add also that while you're quoting competitive prices for your services, that could also give you a little higher expectations of yourself and make you want to do better than if you were pricing for simple "budget" photography. Don't price yourself too high but low enough to get someone's attention.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to come up with a good picture. It takes a "photographer" to understand how to get a good image from his/her camera without using PP as the determining factor. I do everything I can with my camera then maybe a small crop or level adjust afterward. I had someone in a club motion me to come across the room to sit with her. The first question she asked was "how do you get your pictures to look so good". I shoot live bands with no flash and she had no idea how I made it work.