Decorum in the forum?

EOSAddict wrote in post #2386144
You speak sense dimitri, there is a bit of ooh'ing going on. I think it will be interesting to see how the book goes because we are going to have to be fairly brutal to get the right images selected! Some people might have a shock!

It will be a shock alright Al,i`m expecting alot of people to even pull out of the forum because of the book.

Interesting! I would hope not, and that people will see it as a fair and reasonable process. That said, I'm expecting to get a hard time!

I guess the best thing to do is to make your desires known. If you want CC, ask for it with an open mind and a willingness to accept it good or bad.

Too many times I see someone asking for it then, to me, they get defensive when someone critiques their work. In my thinking, if you don't want to hear it, don't ask. I don't give my "opinion" to open a debate on the correctness of it. If I'm alone in my opinion, disregard it. If it becomes a theme, accept it and move on.

On the other hand, if someone posts a shot and doesn't state that they are just sharing an experience with snapshots (which, BTW, I really enjoy), I assume they don't mind CC.

If that's wrong, I can stop doing it but, personally, I don't really see the point of posting images if it's not to learn from those with more experience/knowledge or to get opinions from less experienced photographers who often see something quite helpful.

If it's just to pat each other on the back with a big "atta' boy!", how do we learn and improve? Of course, you don't have to be harsh about it either.

As Dimitri mentions, the problem of those seeking just CC without giving it or even seeking CC then never replying afterwards, is a real problem. Then again, it doesn't take long to figure out who those people are and, like him, avoid their posts altogether.

Last thought: I realize that it can be a blow to hear negative comments about an image that you personally feel is quite good. I've had that happen several times but learned from the experience. When I look at those same images now, I can easily see all of the flaws and have a "Why did I think this was great?" moment.

HrcRacing wrote in post #2386198
I guess the best thing to do is to make your desires known. If you want CC, ask for it with an open mind and a willingness to accept it good or bad.

Too many times I see someone asking for it then, to me, they get defensive when someone critiques their work. In my thinking, if you don't want to hear it, don't ask. I don't give my "opinion" to open a debate on the correctness of it. If I'm alone in my opinion, disregard it. If it becomes a theme, accept it and move on.

On the other hand, if someone posts a shot and doesn't state that they are just sharing an experience with snapshots (which, BTW, I really enjoy), I assume they don't mind CC.

If that's wrong, I can stop doing it but, personally, I don't really see the point of posting images if it's not to learn from those with more experience/knowledge or to get opinions from less experienced photographers who often see something quite helpful.

If it's just to pat each other on the back with a big "atta' boy!", how do we learn and improve? Of course, you don't have to be harsh about it either.

As Dimitri mentions, the problem of those seeking just CC without giving it or even seeking CC then never replying afterwards, is a real problem. Then again, it doesn't take long to figure out who those people are and, like him, avoid their posts altogether.

Last thought: I realize that it can be a blow to hear negative comments about an image that you personally feel is quite good. I've had that happen several times but learned from the experience. When I look at those same images now, I can easily see all of the flaws and have a "Why did I think this was great?" moment.

Wisely spoken words.
I still remember when Robert first joined in the forum and i must say that his progress in landscape photography since then has been huge.

But of cours....there was something wrong with Robert.....he really wanted to learn.

Being fairly new to photography I find myself limited to what genres of Landscape photography I can comment on.

I shoot Lochs, mountains, rivers and the odd coastline and thats about it !!

Thats all I've shot and learned about shooting since I bought my camera last November.

Those are the kinda areas where I consider myself just about able to give advice.

Let me state that 99% of what I've learned is from all the guys on this wonderful forum, others new to the scene who want to learn, will , if they show the correct attitude towards others by contributing and participating .

I find myself a little out of my depth when I consider offering technical advice on any other forms of landscape photography, thats just the way I am, however that will not stop me from telling others how much I like their shots, even if I can't explain in technical terms why.

My post count may have took a little dip as of late, that has nothing to do with the way things are on here, the fact is I'm in a very busy period of my life right now and just don't have as much time as I usually have to contribute.

I still scratch my head as to why this forum has a seperate C&C section ?

Can someone explain why ?

dv2004 wrote in post #2385989
If we want to be CC`d then we have to CC others , its a 2 way game here.
I`m not trying to argue with you,just to show you the way i see things.

But if you have not let learned the "rules" of photography (including when to break them) then it is difficult to look at a picture and be constructive about what would improve it. Instead you just feel it does not look right even though you do not know why.

While many on here may have already been photographers when they joined the site, there are many who arrive with their first camera, no knowledge, just maybe a book at best. It is the latter sort that Owin was referring to.

I think it is totally unreasonable to expect those sorts of people to have to provide constructive criticism before they are deserving of any in return, unless the site (or at least the photo sharing boards) wants to consider itself off limit to beginners, which would be a real shame.

Besides which as much as anything else when you arrive anew it takes time to establish yourself to build up the confidence to offer such advice, especially when it goes against the general consensus. Putting pressure on people to have to comment before that is more likely to scare them away.

That is different to people with hundreds of photo posts who do not contribute back, in which case I think it is a fair grievance. A forum is a community and should not just be used as a personal gallery, particularly when someone else has to put in the time and money to keep the site going.

It is though very easy to recognize the people who are genuinely trying to learn, and who may rightly or wrongly feel they have nothing to contribute in advising others, and those who are just here for their own ego. You just have to realize how intimidating a site like this is to newcomers - with so many talented and experienced people, and the cliquey appearance you always get from small groups of people who know each other well - and treat them with patience.

As far as constructive criticism goes though, I would much prefer receive that than "nice shot" type comments. While the latter is appreciated (and it is often a genuine reaction), it is the former that would help me improve. And the more I learn the more I can give back by sharing that new found knowledge and experience with others. Even when asking though it can still be difficult to get useful feedback. If anyone really wants it though then posting on the Critique Corner board might prove more helpful.

Michael.

CannedHeat wrote in post #2380955
So what are the long-standing house rules?

If somebody posts pictures with a subject such as "Photos from my recent trip to the moon on the space shuttle" is it ok to critique or only post ooh's and aah's if they don't specifically request CC?

On the other hand, if someone posts pictures and doesn't want CC, should they expect that by posting they may get some any way?

Also, it seems potn forums have the same disease I have noticed on other forums - it's called "no-post-itis." When somebody posts a picture that is not really that good, often they fade into off into the temporal universe without a single comment. Why? Is this the way people should behave? Don't we all want to improve our art, and isn't that why we gather here in this house in the first place? Negative comments, when crafted constructively, help people improve.

I'm just sorta' wondering what proper decorum is around here. /Dan

I think whether one should critique on smones post is his own will - whether he provides some useful information or just admires the pic...The base line is that we are part of a FORUM...a PUBLIC place where people can share their stuff...and if u dont want any comments u should mention it (well I do have seen such posts - personally i think that kills the whole idea of being in a forum)...U cant (and i think shouldn't) stop anyone for commenting in any way...How they should do it a different topic and their own to decide....

U r right at pointing out the disease but its better to work for a cure and even that wont work till the patient wants it and is willing to accept it...What i mean is that one should ask for CC and accept whatever he gets in return and learn from it.

dv2004 wrote in post #2386046
Exactly my words,and i`ll give an example.
Not so long ago,someone had posted a picture,nothing special,and before you know it it was on page two.
The same person....bump....what​s wrong with my pictures and noon replies to it.

Well,it took me a few seconds to find out that this was his 2nd post in the forum and his 1st one was another of his pictures.
I`m afraid that this is a comunity,things don`t work like that,you take care of me,i`ll take care of you.

First of all I will say that I am myself a newbie...A person who joined the forum couple of years back when I came across it and saw what a wonderful art photography was...Spent a lot of time reading posts and understanding various aspects...but still I made a mistake and a big one...I had the wrong Approach when I posted my first pics an year after joining the forum...

Dimitri might not be remebering but I too did something of the same sort of blunder mentioned above ...At that time i considered photography as just clicking pictures and getting appreciation...But now I am not ashamed to admit that I made a mistake coz I have moved on from that phase...I have been learning a lot from a lot of experienced and nice people and photography is smthing thats helped me understand myself better...

Wat I am trying to say is that do what u are here to do --- learn & share...The casual ones might fall out themselves or understant the true meaning - like I did...

dv2004 wrote in post #2386046
questions of the nature ....how did i do it,what filter/speed/aperture and why ?
Why that time of day? why portrait orientation?
One thousand questions someone could ask about someones elses pictures but the point is..........are you interested

dv2004 wrote in post #2386129
Thats how you learn,thats what i did,but of cours i really wanted to learn.

Al,i`ve learned from things you do by observing your technique as others learn from mine,its a full circle,noone is perfect.

The above words are 110% True....u will learn if you want to... no one can make u learn...and there are different levels of intrest in which people take to photography...some just want u to see what they saw and some want u to feel what they felt when they shot and much more sometmes... ...And every person has got limitations and the possibilities are enormous in photography...
The best way is ask questions about ur pics; about other people's pics ...QUESTIONS (a mere 9 letter word) is the key to transform urself into smthing completely different....

And my friend Dan, u mentioned the word Decorum...I think there are some other more serious things that come under this topic and that should be taken care of...Well, as an example i will say, I saw a post some days back from a guy who had purchased a Rebel XTI from Dell and it was damaged on delivery. So he contacted Dell and talked to the manger(a Indian Girl). She apologised for the inconvinience and gave him heavy disconts and a propmt service. Its a long story and in the end the guy had a free upgrade to 30D afterpaying just $482 in all, all coz of the Dell manager who willing helped him. Still that guys makes fun of her coz of her being an Indian and having a different accent and then some other pple follow in the same way. That hurt me a lot coz I too am myself from India and firmly beleive in the equality of people. Shouldn't smone have stoped him? Decorum should have been maintained at that time! So what shud have I done...replied back with harsh words? Wud that have helped in any way? No !!! Coz it doesn't change anything ...I know there are a lot of gr8 people out here who don't discriminate based on caste, creed and nationality. They help u when u want it and as purely as possible...

I think I have said more than what I should have but its just because I firmly believe in this forum and its ethics and I trust that any serious person's post wont go unnoticed !!!

I post my photos in this section just for fun and to see what others think.
But If I have a photo that I know is not up to par or needs improvement or I may want some extra feedback I put it in the C and C section.

That way more people can pick it apart.

I also agree that this particular section is more laid back with comments such as "nice Shot" or "great photo" and thats not a bad thing . . .

I had a feeling Dimitri would be bringing it strong in this thread.

I've learned so much from others here over the last year since buying my camera and joining. I always wanted to be a photographer, but was too frustrated by the learning curve. I look back now over the last year at all the stuff I've learned from the people on this site and can only think how silly I was to be intimidated by it all these years (I tried in high school over 20 years ago and gave up too easily).

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Sometimes I have the time to duplicate this web page and place them side by side...Writing the post comments is a lot easier while looking at the photo right next to the reply box...

Since I'm retired, I have the time to review photos and comment more often than others...Presently, and since I joined the forum in August of 2006, I'm spending the majority of my time posting in the Performing Arts Section...it is by far the smallest section with the least amount of viewers and participants...

What's interesting is that it is one of the most difficult topics to shoot and present here in the forum...we have to be careful not to step on the subject's toes...and always portray the performer in the best light...It is very difficult to photograph in dark indoor concert venues, and we need a lot of feedback from experienced photographers...I wish more regulars would visit us and help critique from time to time...Our lenses cost a fortune...as only the fastest ones work in dark theaters...any time others wish to stop by and visit for a chat, please do...You're all welcome...

John

Curtis N wrote in post #2385766
1) If you like it, say so. And if you have the time, be specific about what you like.

2) If you don't like it, don't respond unless you can take the time to explain why you don't like it, politely and constructively. And rather than tell the OP what he did wrong, suggest what he might do differently next time for better results.

Personally, I think it should be the same either way. I don't care if someone doesn't like my picture and doesn't have the time to explain themselves, at least I get a somewhat acurate gauge as to what I'm producing. I don't see anything wrong with negative posts, although for complete n00bs, it probably doesn't help them at all. However with people who already have a sense of aesthetic and a grasp of photography, its nice to know what people do and don't like.

I agree with pertty much everything D has said so far.

I am still a "newbie" on these boards. And the only way I'm going to learn to improve my images is by posting them for critique and asking people who take both good and bad shots why they chose certain settings and options etc.
But I'm not perfect of course, and I've also fallen into the "ooh, ahh" comments sometimes - but then sometimes an image warrants just that, and I don't see anything wrong with it, so long as your general attitude is one that is both receptive and projective in learning/teaching.

These forums are great in my opinion. Other areas of these boards (I won't name them) can be very stiffling with a bit of ego floating around, but these "share your work" forums are brilliant if you want to learn about the art and science of photography from people just like you or from people who used to be just like you.

I won't ever hold back if I want to state something, and sometimes I'll be wrong with my comments and will have a bit of egg on my face. But this is the only way to learn.

dgcorner wrote in post #2385769
And, the best way to get critique is by asking for it. If someone posts just to get positive comments then this is the wrong place to do it.

Well that is actually not correct.

The share forums are for sharing. The critique corner is for critique.

That does not mean you can't give constructive critiqie in share forums but if a member just want positive comment then the share forums is definately the place for that.

tommykjensen wrote in post #2388364
Well that is actually not correct.

The share forums are for sharing. The critique corner is for critique.

That does not mean you can't give constructive critiqie in share forums but if a member just want positive comment then the share forums is definately the place for that.

i ws wondering when someone would bring this up.

Curtis N wrote in post #2385766
1) If you like it, say so. And if you have the time, be specific about what you like.

2) If you don't like it, don't respond unless you can take the time to explain why you don't like it, politely and constructively. And rather than tell the OP what he did wrong, suggest what he might do differently next time for better results.

Some posts go without response because no one was willing to take the time required for #2, before it drops off the radar.

This sounds like a reasonable comment. However I have seen some great shots that have 'dropped off the radar' - the only apparent reason I can see is that the poster is new and therefore their name is not known. Because this share in particular is so busy, I feel that some visitors just look to see the names of people that they know post good work and view those, or posts from those that they consider 'friends'. Sometimes because of this and the busyness(sp?) of the share, other great pictures drop to the second page without everyone having a chance to see them, even if they log on every day.

New members are far more likely to become active participators if they feel that people have an interest in their work, comments or questions. If they then don't post in other peoples threads.... well, I agree with Dimitri, it's a two way thing.

I have a tendancy at the moment to look back about a week and see if there are any posts with 0 responses and try to make a comment on one or two of them, either generally or with constructive criticism. Very often I find that they are new or newish members. Some of the shots have been very good and I have been able to give some new members a 'boost'. I have had shots just 'drop off the radar' and it's actually quite a horrible feeling - it didn't move people and no-one cared enough to comment even with possible improvements.

I have encountered other points of view though. One member (who shall remain nameless), stated the fact that they posted the shots they did only to get the praise of others. When I had the audacity to make a comment that the image would have been better (IMO) had a small thing been different (before they admited that they posted only for the priase), that member was quite short with me. Also, I have not seen them post in other peoples threads. I now rarely even bother looking at their images now and if I do, certainly would not bother to comment I am afraid.

Unfortunatly, due to time, I don't find myself able to even view all the threads I would like, let alone comment on them.