Awwww, thats too bad

That is just what I was thinking.

On Saturday while covering the Capitol City Classic here in Indy at Hinkle Fieldhouse, I was approached by a man who is starting a new magazine here in central Indiana. It is all about high school sports. Launch date is March 07. He asked about me shooting for his magazine and I gave him a card. Now I will admit, I was kind of excited. Maybe this could turn into a nice little side gig.

Well tonight I got the email from him, actually it was more of a form letter asking about availability, pricing and what schools you would be willing to cover in 20 counties here in central Indiana.
As I am reading down this email, all is looking good and then I see the magic phrase.

Thats when my jaw dropped and I thought to myself, wow that is a deal breaker.

Now why do you ask is that? Well, I won't give up the copyright and for good reason.
Lets say I shoot a basketball game that has a kid named Eric Gordon in it? He is rated as one of the top 5 prep players in the US. Now I give up my copyright and all of a sudden, I see that shot in Sports Illustrated, ESPN the Magazine, and who knows what else. Guess how much I would have made off of it? Yep, not a dime but, this magazine would have made a nice chunk of change.

Never give up your copyright you never know when you will shoot something that may catch on fire like it did for Thomas Witte out of Cincinnati when he shot a game of a kid playing football with no legs, literally. Dude pulled in over $12,000 from that session in worldwide publication.

Here is a link to the story about Thomas Witte and this kid. I have to admit, this is one fantastic story and is a good read. It will let you know what can happen and why you shouldn't give up your copyright and may make your feeling sorry for yourself someday seem so trivial. That kid is a GIANT in my eye.

Read this

liza is so subtle, lol, but she's right

Don't all jump on me at once, but did this guy actualy mean copyright? Did you ask him?

Yes...sometimes Liza's subtle commnents can be overwhelming.

Jeff-

This type of request will come sometimes from those people who are unfamiliar with photographic licensing. People/Clients simply do not often understand that there are different kinds of usage-pro photographers need to educate our clients that usage is the key factor of value. I explain to clients that my normal rates include a limited 2 year non-exclusive license, and that this helps keep my clients cost lower for most regular use. If they think that they want more usage options, then give them pricing for 5 year and unlimited use options at the higher rates-I generally use 2X for 5 year and 4x for unlimited use. If people ask for the copyright, I have no problem with quoting them a rate of 10 times my normal fee. In 5 years, I have only had 1 corporate client choose to buy copyright-$4000 for 2 hours of work.

I can completely undertand that copyright purchase is a simple concept for many clients to grasp, and I think that in most circumstances we sshould be open to fullfill opur clients requests as long as it is at the right rate.

-Scott

TeeJay wrote in post #2383840
Don't all jump on me at once, but did this guy actualy mean copyright? Did you ask him?

Yes that is what he meant. I can't think of any other explaination for the statement

Since then I have received an email from him saying that he is still being educated on the copyright end of things but, I am still not giving up the copyright unless I am very well compensated for the image.


Yeah Scott I hear ya, but I doubt they will be willing to pay the higher fees associated with a buyout.
Sad thing is he is talking to anyone he sees with an SLR and asking if they would be interested in shooting for him. I know he will get plenty of guys who will jump at the chance to get their work published in such a medium. Of course they also will work for peanuts LOL.

Great illustration, Jeff!

Recent emails:
"We don't have much budget left for 2007 & would need to hire a writer, too. Would you do it for $100?" (Down from the previously "low" price.)
Me:
LOL! At which point do I have to pay you to shoot that?
Them:
Weeks later & no answer yet, but I can't wait to see what they come back with, if anything!

Of course it never hurts to ask. And you were smart enough to catch it. But I doubt that it is a deal breaker. I am sure you could work something out. But it really isn't that uncommon when shooting for a publication that they would want rights to the image if they are paying you to be there. Negotiate.... I am sure a logical solution can be had. It would be cool to be on the ground floor of something like this.... perhaps even a worthless title like photo editor could be had.

It doesnt hurt for them to ask you if you would, as I bet that many would be thrilled to hand over copyright to get in the magazine, you just need to read some of the threads on this board to realize that.

However, I see it as just that, a question, not an absolute saying that you must in order to shoot for us.

I would have responded saying that all looked good except for that one line. Tell him you wont give up your copyright, but would grant usage for the magazine to use it in any they want within their magazine and that they cannot transfer ownership or usage rights to any third party.

That way they can use it freely within their publication giving them the freedom to not have to keep coming to you, but they cannot re-sell or grant usage to anyone else, leaving it open for you to make those sales.

If they simply wont budge or pay, it becomes a deal breaker. But at this early point I would have viewed it simply as a request in hopes that he gets someone that is just happy to see their photos in print.

Trust me I know he was just fishing hoping to get the copyrights on anything they used from me. That I won't do unless, like I said earlier, I am very well compensated for that.

I sent him a link to a quick gallery I put up and my SS member page. He has since looked at it and I think we will be talking.

Croasdial I have never given up my copyright to an image when working with a magazine. Oh I have had them ask but I always refuse and offer them a huge buyout price. They never take it tho.

Sad thing is I know this guy will find some yahoo, maybe several, who will get out there week after week, go home edit and transmit images for $30 a game. It won't take too long, maybe a year and they will tire of the game and call it quits.
I did tell him since he is a new start up I would work with him on pricing to get the ball rolling so we will see what happens.

Maybe, like you say, he was "fishing" to find a naive photog who would give him a copyright release.

Or maybe he doesn't fully understand the difference between a copyright release and a license, and needs to be politely educated.

Or maybe he is pondering the alternative of hiring staff photographers, in which case his publication would own the copyright for whatever they produce. He might be just weighing the pros and cons of that vs. using freelancers.

In any case, an answer of "Hell no!" is not likely to lead to a mutually beneficial working relationship. But an answer of, "No, but I'm sure we can work out a licensing agreement." might prove fruitful.

liza wrote in post #2382758
I would have told him, "HELL, NO!!!" And I hope you did, too. What a jerk.

You are repressing again Liza, tell us how you really feel.

Well, there are professional responses and then those that "dont mince words." The difference is a professional response can say the same thing while still maintaining a dialog that might keep you working.

Curtis makes a good point about the possibility of him hiring you as staff. In which case it might not be a bad deal as most staff shooters give up their copyrights all the time. The benefit is just that, benefits and a solid paycheck.

It might be something to consider if that offer ends up on the table.

I'm on the fence about this one.

I guess I see everybody's point. I say don't just walk away yet Jeff, it could still lead somewhere.

Maybe he's hoping you're a sucker? Maybe he doesn't have a clue? Maybe he just wanted to ask you something? Maybe this, maybe that. The only way to find out is to talk to the guy and find out what he's really about.

Don't shut the door just yet.