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FORUMS General Gear Talk Flash and Studio Lighting 
Thread started 15 Dec 2006 (Friday) 09:33
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Question about using Barn Doors on strobes

 
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Robocop
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Jan 10, 2007 19:56 |  #91

Mr Wilt
I can tell you that I have done a lot of reading in these forums in recent days and this thread is the most educational thing I have encountered so far. The knowledge Scott is sharing is vast and I am extremely grateful to have stumbled onto it. I may not be the most experience shooter in the world but I know when the words make sense to me and Scott's words make complete sense! Watching Robert learn from Scott has been nothing short of fantastic as many others have observed. I plan to study this thread and practice the techniques taught. Literally seeing a person grow in their skills has been inspirational.
I have not read a single world where Scott was teaching Robert that this is how you do things in a working studio so please don't suggest that. What I have gotten is that this is a series of lessons about understanding light and how to work with it and control it. THAT is invaluable and again I am VERY grateful. If more photographers taught this unselfishly and at this level, a lot of us would be much better shooters and a lot less frustrated.
Your point is totally valid and I fully agree with you that the right equipment is needed to run a working studio. No problem there but please don't say that either Scott or Robert are suggesting using reflectors like this in a working studio. It's not what they are saying and I don't think anyone who has actually read this would remotely believe that.
I've read some of your posts and you have given some great advice. No offense but I think you have really misread the content and purpose of these lessons.

All I have to say is go Robert! And Yea lightingman! Keep up the great work!
Robocop
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Wilt
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Jan 10, 2007 20:29 |  #92

Robocop wrote in post #2521254 (external link)
I have not read a single world where Scott was teaching Robert that this is how you do things in a working studio so please don't suggest that. What I have gotten is that this is a series of lessons about understanding light and how to work with it and control it. THAT is invaluable and again I am VERY grateful. If more photographers taught this unselfishly and at this level, a lot of us would be much better shooters and a lot less frustrated.
Your point is totally valid and I fully agree with you that the right equipment is needed to run a working studio. No problem there but please don't say that either Scott or Robert are suggesting using reflectors like this in a working studio. It's not what they are saying and I don't think anyone who has actually read this would remotely believe that.
I've read some of your posts and you have given some great advice. No offense but I think you have really misread the content and purpose of these lessons.

Robocop, you have read way too much into your interpretation of MY motives! I am not at all 'putting down' any info in what Scott is teaching, I am fully supporting it. Try to find, if you can, any "I don't agree" or "wrong info" critique from me about anything that Scott has posted in this thread. You won't find any.

I am not trying to say that what Scott is teaching a method of lighting that is not a valid one to use. I am fully agreeing that the use of the reflector as a hair light is a wonderful learning tool; yet I am also contributing additional information about the understanding of lights, via the statement of the value of a light rather than a reflector in a working studio because of its speed and precision; just presenting another side of the coin for view. I am augmenting, not contradicting or taking a counter position, please! You inferred too much and misread my motivations.


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TMR ­ Design
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Jan 10, 2007 20:49 as a reply to  @ Wilt's post |  #93

I do agree Wilt. The typed word is so often misunderstood. I got what you were saying and it makes perfect sense.

This thread is teaching basic theory and concept, and of course that involves lights. Rather than stopping or assuming I can't have a fill or hairlight Scott has shown me that I can learn about fill and hairlights and what they should look like, so in theory I should be able to apply that knowledge when I get another strobe to use as the hairlight, and the same applies when I replace the fill reflector with a light.

I'm very excited because the subject of this thread now comes full circle. After all the chatter about softboxes, softlighters, octaboxes, umbrellas, and every other modifier under the sun, I've ordered a set of barn doors from Alien Bees. I should have them Friday.


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Robocop
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Jan 10, 2007 22:46 |  #94

Mr Wilt
The part I just don't get is where you got the idea that some suggestion was made that photographers running studios don't or shouldn't use a full setup of lights. No one in this thread said that or suggested that. This thread was never about that and I have read the entire thing twice. It's a great education in light control and I'm grateful. I always new that and I bet others reading it would agree. A pro studio has to have a full setup. That's a real no brainer.
If I ever do have a full setup, I'm very happy that I will also have some of the smarts learned from this thread to get the most out of it. One thing I have learned here for sure is that the greatest tool we can use is great info.
No offence was intended. Just felt the threads content was excellent and pretty obvious as to it's goals.
Robocop
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Jan 10, 2007 22:54 |  #95

Robocop wrote in post #2522155 (external link)
Mr Wilt
The part I just don't get is where you got the idea that some suggestion was made that photographers running studios don't or shouldn't use a full setup of lights. No one in this thread said that or suggested that. This thread was never about that and I have read the entire thing twice. It's a great education in light control and I'm grateful. I always new that and I bet others reading it would agree. A pro studio has to have a full setup. That's a real no brainer.
If I ever do have a full setup, I'm very happy that I will also have some of the smarts learned from this thread to get the most out of it. One thing I have learned here for sure is that the greatest tool we can use is great info.
No offence was intended. Just felt the threads content was excellent and pretty obvious as to it's goals.
Robocop
Have a nice day.

Hi Robocop. I think that if you look at this post that I made, one could easily think that I was the one suggesting that you could use this as a day to day studio setup. The post, which I've quoted myself below, is my overenthusiasm about the concept of having 2 lights and doing what would normally be done with 4. I did not have to buy more lights before learning more and that was what I was trying to express, but if taken out of context you could read it as me thinking this was the answer to studio lighting. I believe that is all Wilt was saying.

TMR Design wrote in post #2516621 (external link)
I just have to say that I think it's pretty cool that the fill and hairlight are created by reflecting light from the main light. So I'm doing with 2 lights what would normally be done with 4. For all those like myself that assumed this could not be done without buying more strobes, think again.


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Robocop
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Jan 10, 2007 23:04 |  #96

Robert
Thank you for your post. I understand and appreciate your comments. You just have to know how much I have enjoyed this thread. Each day, I checked with enthusiasm to see what your latest post was and what Scott was going to say and have you do next. It's been like a great soap opera but educational! I just felt that Wilt was a bit out of place. I hope you guys keep this thread going for a while longer. If others agree, maybe they should also encourage it's continuation.
Thank you
Robocop
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JSimonian
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Jan 10, 2007 23:43 |  #97

Hey Robert (TMR) I recieved my "Helen" today. Looks like I got your twin! If I remember right you said that you mounted the head on a light stand? If that's correct , how did you do it? I was thinking about using a block of wood or something and getting the "female" version of the screw mount for a light stand, but wasn't sure how I should affix the head to the wood or if there was a better (more simpler) option that you may have used.

Thanks for all the info. I plan on some practice time this weekend.

J.Simonian




  
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Jason77
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Jan 11, 2007 01:42 |  #98

TMR Design wrote in post #2519029 (external link)
I simply wanted to point out that the process of learning about lighting does not require a large expenditure and can be done simply, as you (Wilt) and Scott have pointed out repeatedly, and this thread is a clear demonstration of that.

that is exactly how i took it. one of the intimidating things about learning lighting can be thinking that you need to buy alot of equipment if you want to learn "the right way". its one of the many reasons i've found this thread both inspiring and reassuring.


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Dooner
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Jan 11, 2007 04:18 as a reply to  @ Jason77's post |  #99

Great thread - thanks to both of you.


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Chris71
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Jan 11, 2007 06:31 as a reply to  @ Dooner's post |  #100

I just wanted to jump in here and say that this thread convinced me to purchase three of Scott's books.
The book "Studio Lighting Made Simple" is just as easy to understand, as his teachings are in this thread!
I have only read to chapters 3 so far, and if I had bought this book before the previous 10 that I have bought on studio lighting, I would have saved some money. I have learned more in these first chapters, than I have in all of the other books combined.
I called the phone number on his website, expecting to order through one of his secretaries, but I was surprised to hear "hello this is Scott" when he answered. I talked with him for a few minutes, and he is a super friendly guy.

Anyway, I just wanted to say, that I highly recommend his books.

Keep up the good work Scott!


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Jan 11, 2007 08:58 |  #101

JSimonian wrote in post #2522375 (external link)
Hey Robert (TMR) I recieved my "Helen" today. Looks like I got your twin! If I remember right you said that you mounted the head on a light stand? If that's correct , how did you do it? I was thinking about using a block of wood or something and getting the "female" version of the screw mount for a light stand, but wasn't sure how I should affix the head to the wood or if there was a better (more simpler) option that you may have used.

Thanks for all the info. I plan on some practice time this weekend.

J.Simonian

Hello J (not sure of your first name),

Glad you got your Helen F1. Sounds like something from science fiction or Star Trek...loolol

I kept it real simple and it looks good too. I found a corner shelf with a rounded front in Home Depot. They have them in different sizes and I grabbed the smallest that would allow the base of the mannequin to sit on top. Rather than get into mounting brackets and light stand hardware I just drilled a hole in the center of the bottom of the shelf that was slightly smaller than the thread at the top of the lightstand. Since the shelf is hard wood I was able to screw the threads on the lightstand right up into the hole and it created the inner threads and tightened down nicely. If you've worked with wood you can see that if you just kept tightening it it would strip and become loose but if you go easy it will tighten down very firmly without needing any other hardware. I didn't bother to mount the mannequin or create a center pole. It just sits there and it's great.

It looks like this:
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Jan 11, 2007 09:09 |  #102

Jason77 wrote in post #2522601 (external link)
that is exactly how i took it. one of the intimidating things about learning lighting can be thinking that you need to buy alot of equipment if you want to learn "the right way". its one of the many reasons i've found this thread both inspiring and reassuring.

Hi Jason,

Exactly!! One thing I've been slowly learning (hard to fight all the Buy Buy Brainwashing in the forums) is that the DIY's and a bit of creativity really goes a long way. I could have sat here and said "oh no, I don't have enough lights or stands to do this right" but I chose to be creative and meet the challenge. My fill reflector is rigged to a light stand and the hairlight reflector is taped to a piece of PVC tubing that is hanging from the frame of a 7' DIY diffuser stand I made. This allows me to learn with 2 lights, an umbrella, white foam board and some silver wrapping paper.
I'm actually very glad that I'm learning this way and I can't wait until I have my first set of barn doors.


Robert
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drisley
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Jan 11, 2007 09:56 |  #103

I just came into this thread late. I notice that Scott Smith himself is taking part! That's so awesome because I bought your Studio Lighting Made Simple book a couple months ago and LOVE it! From what I've read in this thread so far, I can't believe how much time you spent helping the TMR. SUPER job all around!


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Jan 11, 2007 10:20 |  #104

drisley wrote in post #2523862 (external link)
I just came into this thread late. I notice that Scott Smith himself is taking part! That's so awesome because I bought your Studio Lighting Made Simple book a couple months ago and LOVE it! From what I've read in this thread so far, I can't believe how much time you spent helping the TMR. SUPER job all around!

Hi Drisley,

I'm hoping that Scott is helping others and not just me. Between this thread and one or two others regarding portrait lighting and light modifiers, anyone could walk away with some very valuable and useful information. Unfortunately, not everyone reads these threads and sometimes just skim them. I think (and of course I am biased) that this thread is a very good one and extremely helpful because each time there is a new exercise or experiment the results are posted and critiqued, and others can see what was done by looking at an illustration or picture instead of just reading paragraphs of info. I'm very good at following instructions and self-learning but I'm also a very visual person and seeing IS believing. Reading descriptions can only go so far. Taking the camera and trying or testing something for yourself and then getting immediate feedback is invaluable.


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Jan 11, 2007 10:28 as a reply to  @ drisley's post |  #105

Bravo Robert!
You are really doing well. You have progressed from merely asking questions to creating images that show real and essential control over the elements of light. There have been over 2100 viewing of this thread. That’s a lot of interest. One day soon, it will be great to see your new skills put to the test on a head and shoulders with a heart beat!

I think it’s been well established that any working professional needs a certain amount of professional equipment to do whatever job comes in the door. I have always used a 4 light kit. Main, fill, hair and background with additional lights available on occasion when I needed more accent lights or a more exotic effect for lighting the background.

The benefits for you learning about the science of controlling light is that you will be able to quickly solve lighting problems and create what you need to because you have the knowledge even when you don’t have enough hardware. As we have demonstrated here, you can achieve a great deal even when you don’t yet have a full kit of lights. We absolutely need a certain amount of hardware but NO amount of equipment will ever substitute for knowledge. As I love to remind my seminar students, your brain is already paid for and there is plenty of room left in it so why not load it up?!

Ok, let’s talk about some of the issues at hand. Your hair light looks pretty good. I know Wilt was concerned about the possible spill onto the side of the subject’s face. I appreciate his concern but there are no absolutes to this. We have to consider a number of factors that include the hair style of the subject, the size of the light source and very importantly the style of the portrait we are creating.

I have deliberately allowed hair light to kiss the side of a subject’s face on many occasions over the years for specific effect. Ideas and flexibility of thinking are what make a photographer unique, so think in terms of “What would look cool for THIS portrait” as opposed to “What is the rule for this”. Sometimes rules need to be broken but that should only happen if you fully understand the rule in the first place.

When using a small hair light such as a flash unit with barn door, I would usually avoid letting the hair light reach any part of the face. IF however, the subject were a bride with her hair completely up and her neck fully exposed, I might shift to a softer hair light by simply hanging a small diffusion panel in front of my hair light with barn doors. Now the light reaching the hair AND neck area is soft with a gradual fall off and can be quite pleasing if not overdone but again, it’s not something we do every time. Bottom line is that you are the artist and should create intelligently. If I were photographing a modern young couple using a lot of color, gels, smoke, I might let a great deal of hair light reach the sides of their faces to suggest the look of neon lighting from the streets. There is no limit to your own creativity. Just do it intelligently and never paint yourself into a box.

As a generally rule, I prefer to light long hair on a subject like yours from the side and behind her rather than from the top. Lighting from the top can leave the shadow side of the hair a bit lifeless and bland. Spread that hair light over the full dimension of the hair and it will come to life and look very attractive.

On your plastic subject, light the hair so that the highlight extends across as much of her hair as possible on the shadow side of her face without lighting her cheek. If you see light reaching her cheek, simply move the source toward the background a bit. Since you are using a “high tech” reflector that is controllable and directional, you should be able to train the light where you want it.

To comment on what someone said about needing more hair light, if you remember, I expected this to be a minimal amount of light. After all we are looking at a soft main light that has to travel past the subject, hit the reflector, lose a bit of it’s brightness just doing that and then turn around and travel another distance back to the subject’s head. Needless to say that distance from reflector to subject controls the amount of hair light reaching her.

You know, how much I talk about getting what you see and having a balanced set of strobes that will always deliver precisely what you see with your eyes. Well, when you are using fewer lights like this and are redirecting some of the light to other locations, you really will get what you see because much of the light is originating from a single source.

Ok, I will be looking forward to your next posts. Keep up the great work.
Take care,


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Question about using Barn Doors on strobes
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