Discreet photographer, leave the pro alone...

Well, my friends are getting married in Italy, Ravello mid-next year, I have time to learn, and they want me to bring my kit along for candid shots. Dom, the groom, likes my stuff and has some pictures from me, for free of course, and his beautiful wife wants me to do candid stuff! She is very ok with the idea of discreet natural shotsl! They want to "buy" any decent shots I take.

I am an "ambush" photographer, discreet, (even though it is still a hobby!) so I think I should respect the pro-photographer and give him space BUT if I can take decent shots and be on par with him, I would like this to work for me. I've read a lot from "Curtis" and other senior advisers on indoor photography.

I do consider POTN as my friends because I have been so encouraged and helped by you all that even if I fail, I hope you will all help me get my feet back on the ground

So here it is: I have current equip as sig, and I will be getting 50 1.8 and 70-200 F2.8L IS before the main event, what can I do, candid and descreet wise to get the best shots?

Should I shadow the "pro", turn at the bride and groom getting ready; the ushers, the bridge and groom entourages. I am willing to get up early and do this for me. I would rather spend the whole day snapping and then get merry at the end of the day than just sit there in church!

I do know HOW important wedding photos are for the couple and gettin it all right. No one is EVER going to employ a virgin wedding photographer, I get and undestand this. So how do you start out, what is the FIRST step?

If you can't help then guidelines would be much appreciated, please? Thanks.

- Talk to the pro at the start of the day and respect their wishes else you'll piss them off and the B&G will get poorer pictures.
- Don't shoot anywhere near the pro, if you're in the line of sight of the subject and two cameras are pointed at someone they don't know where to look, even if told, and the main shot is spoiled.
- Do go where the pro can't, either because the B&G don't want the pro there, or because the pro is busy elsewhere. eg if he's shooting the bride get ready, go shoot the groom.
- Try to get an alternate viewpoint, height and distance wise.
- Stay still in the church, too many people moving around is distracting for everyone.
- Forget the 50mm F1.8 it's not good enough for weddings, the focus is inaccurate. Get the 50mm F1.4 if you need 50mm, else get the 17-55 F2.8 IS.
- If you want to shoot over the pro's shoulder (which i've advised you don't do) then the 70-200 is useful. Otherwise I don't see a lot of use for it for you. I use mine for the ceremony and the reception, and occasionally for walking around shots where I want a blurred background.

Hope that helps

tim wrote in post #2413303
- Talk to the pro at the start of the day and respect their wishes else you'll piss them off and the B&G will get poorer pictures.
- Don't shoot anywhere near the pro, if you're in the line of sight of the subject and two cameras are pointed at someone they don't know where to look, even if told, and the main shot is spoiled.
- Do go where the pro can't, either because the B&G don't want the pro there, or because the pro is busy elsewhere. eg if he's shooting the bride get ready, go shoot the groom.
- Try to get an alternate viewpoint, height and distance wise.
- Stay still in the church, too many people moving around is distracting for everyone.
- Forget the 50mm F1.8 it's not good enough for weddings, the focus is inaccurate. Get the 50mm F1.4 if you need 50mm, else get the 17-55 F2.8 IS.
- If you want to shoot over the pro's shoulder (which i've advised you don't do) then the 70-200 is useful. Otherwise I don't see a lot of use for it for you. I use mine for the ceremony and the reception, and occasionally for walking around shots where I want a blurred background.

Hope that helps

Thank you Tim! I like many of your comments because I didn't even start to think about some of them! I knew I'd get help here!

Ok so, point 1, talk to the pro and "let them know I am around"; I would never have thought of this! I'll introduce myself as soon as possible and get on his good side.

Point 2: I don't want the "the same shots as the pro" because they paid for him, so stay out of his way and don't take his poses? Is that right?

Point 3 - Good one! So while he is shooting the bride, I shoot the groom and "boys", and then vive-versa! I wanna shoot the girls though most of the time, lovely beasts that they are! They all look lovely, the ladies, at wedding time! Nice one!

Point 4 - Do you mean perspective shots? Get the B or G as focal and then some kind of blurred (through aperture control) of the maids and best men in the background? The family, the ushers? I think I get it. Depth of interest rigth?

Point 5 - The church. It is quite dark (old italian church, no electrics only sunlight through windows) so I thought fast lens? Should I get up and away from the congregation and shoot off angle?

Point 6 - Technical - Damn, I was set on the 50 1.8 - I don't want to get any zoom that replaces my F4L zooms so 50 1.4 is is the best, eh? Ok, well I'll demo the 1.4; cost is not a problem.

Last point, a cruncher! Why can I not follow his shoot? What if I also got the 100-400L as well? I'll have cash for the F2.8 and long zoom by mid-year? Is this because of interruptions? I'll learn loads and they will look at me.

How do I get them to look into my lens, cause most of the time, they won't, even though they know I am there

Tim,you are a star for the advice! Please accept my thanks and merry xmas and happiness to you and family!

rammy wrote in post #2413470
Thank you Tim! I like many of your comments because I didn't even start to think about some of them! I knew I'd get help here!

Ok so, point 1, talk to the pro and "let them know I am around"; I would never have thought of this! I'll introduce myself as soon as possible and get on his good side.

Point 2: I don't want the "the same shots as the pro" because they paid for him, so stay out of his way and don't take his poses? Is that right?

Point 3 - Good one! So while he is shooting the bride, I shoot the groom and "boys", and then vive-versa! I wanna shoot the girls though most of the time, lovely beasts that they are! They all look lovely, the ladies, at wedding time! Nice one!

Point 4 - Do you mean perspective shots? Get the B or G as focal and then some kind of blurred (through aperture control) of the maids and best men in the background? The family, the ushers? I think I get it. Depth of interest rigth?

Point 5 - The church. It is quite dark (old italian church, no electrics only sunlight through windows) so I thought fast lens? Should I get up and away from the congregation and shoot off angle?

Point 6 - Technical - Damn, I was set on the 50 1.8 - I don't want to get any zoom that replaces my F4L zooms so 50 1.4 is is the best, eh? Ok, well I'll demo the 1.4; cost is not a problem.

Last point, a cruncher! Why can I not follow his shoot? What if I also got the 100-400L as well? I'll have cash for the F2.8 and long zoom by mid-year? Is this because of interruptions? I'll learn loads and they will look at me.

How do I get them to look into my lens, cause most of the time, they won't, even though they know I am there

Tim,you are a star for the advice! Please accept my thanks and merry xmas and happiness to you and family!

1) Yep, tell them the B&G have asked you to take a few pictures, but that you don't want to get in his (or her) way, and ask if they have anything they'd rather you not do. If someone said this to me i'd just ask them not to shoot what i'm shooting, so my shots aren't spoiled. I don't care if anyone gets the same shots as me because i've already been paid, but if they spoil my shots then I do care.

2) Yep. No point having two shots of the same thing, get something else.

3) The before/after transformation with brides is pretty amazing!

4) If they're lying on the ground go climb a tree, and vice versa. Same with wide/long shots. Just make sure you stay out of the way.

5) Just sit down and enjoy the ceremony. The shots from the ceremony are usually pretty boring. If they stay on one side you might stay on the other.

6) If cost isn't a problem get the 50mm F1.2L

7) If the people in the photo see you and look at you for even a fraction of a second their shot can be spoiled. I don't let people hang around behind me, and I actively ask people to put down cameras that are near me. Once i'm done I let them take their shot.

How do I get them to look into my lens, cause most of the time, they won't, even though they know I am there

They will, and it will spoil photos. Trust me on this.

Have fun, talk to the pro, and be ready for the photos after the pro goes home

id ask the "pro" how they feel about it. i know that some dont want a shadow if theyre not with them. the pro holds the contract to the wedding shots, and could very well choose not to have you up and about while he/shes shooting. it could be seen as a slap in the face to the pro.

Yes, please don't interrupt the formals. My first wedding by myself had the mother of the bride looking off from everyone else in almost every picture at others taking pictures. I finally stopped and nicely asked everyone else to stop shooting until I got my shots and then they could take shots also.

About following the pro around, how would you feel if every time you said something, someone followed you around all day and said the same exact thing. It would get annoying real quick. I feel like I'm saying something with my camera and don't want a looming presence behind me all day. I'd start to get self conscience after a while. Stand off a little and observe but don't get right up behind them shooting away. You don't have to build your portfolio all in one day. Watch and learn also. Just seeing how fast a pace a wedding can go at is a learning experience.

Since you're just shooting for fun there is no pressure so enjoy. Don't forget though that the pro is under a lot of pressure and time constraints and might not be very compliant with you getting in his/her way. They probably have a consistent routine set up and won't appreciate it being interrupted.

I don't see any macros in your collection. Might look at a 100mm macro for portraits and detail shots. There's usually all sorts of little things to shoot at a wedding. I'm getting a 500D to go on my 85 1.8 tomorrow. It will have to do until I'm not so cash poor and can get a good macro myself. It can be an expensive business to get into. I'm just starting out and am paying out more then I've earned so far.

Have fun.

It sounds like the bride wants you to capture candid moments. Not shadow the pro.

Unless the pro is cool with you following him I would go searching for those candid moments and not ruin the day for the pro and maybe the bride.

Mr Wed Shooter is right, and I don't think a macro lens is helpful for candids.

The bride and groom have asked for candids from you, so it's up to them to tell the pro about you. But just in case they forget, do make sure you introduce yourself to him/her as soon as you can, to minimise the chance of offence. But if you're just grabbing candids and giving the pro a wide berth, there should be no cause for offence. You'll just be regular wedding paparazzi with a big camera

I second Tim's comment about the 50/1.8 ... waste of money for this sort of thing.

But I disagree about the 70-200 ... I think this is exactly the right lens for close-up candids from a distance. It will let you sit back, out of everyone's way, and capture special moments without interfering. You'll just need to be careful about the shallow DOF, but I quite like shallow DOF for this type of shooting... up to you. In REALLY low light you might find this lens limiting though, as it can be a challenge to use flash effectively at 200mm. A 50/1.4 will let you shoot without flash though

Hope that helps.

I should have added that a 100-400 would be too long (and too slow) for weddings.

This sounds like a fiasco just waiting to happen.

My suggestion would be that if you want to learn how to be a wedding photographer then you should become an assistant instead of stepping on someone else's shoot. Being an assistant will give you practice, guidance, and the CLEARANCE to shoot an event rather than trying to piggyback the pro.

I think that most pros will deal with you for the day, because unless they have this in their contract that there are not to be any other "pro/amatuer" photographers there will not be anything that they can do. But I think that most would rather not have to worry about you being in their shot, taking the eyes of the subject, or anything else that might happen during the day.

My suggestion would be to bring along a 70-200 IS and ambush from your seat if you want to get some shots for the B/G.

Thanks for the advice all, much appreciated. Thanks for the depth of info Tim, I've taken comments on board.

Didn't really think too much about "getting in the way" so that advice certainly taken on board. "takeyourpic", yeah could be a fiasco if I irrate anyone so I think I'll just stay in the background.

Had a chat with groom and he would like me to concentrate on taking pics of the people who have come and not to necessarily concentrate on B&G. That's cool, I don't think I wanted to do anything near the pro or to take any shots he was taking anyway, they paid for him. I might study from afar though.

The area is really nice and the church and reception places look really romantic so I may go for a few wide shots with the people in to help set the scene.

I think the 70-200 will probably be a good choice to take as it will keep me out of the way and maybe forget about the 50 cause I may need to get too close.

Thanks again.

I'll echo and confirm that introducing yourself to the pro before the day of is a good idea. I did this for a co-worker's wedding and it went a LONG way in showing professionalism in his eyes. He went so far as to tell me he had never had somebody and do that before and he appreciated the courtesy.

Day of, he invited us (I was shooting secondary w/my business partner) to lunch sometime and use of his studio if we wanted.

Knightshade wrote in post #2416519
I'll echo and confirm that introducing yourself to the pro before the day of is a good idea. I did this for a co-worker's wedding and it went a LONG way in showing professionalism in his eyes.

Yeah I think that is a good idea! I'll just say that B&G are mates, they want me to take candids and like Tim says, I'll basically ask nicely where they don't want me and just take my time in getting more reportage kind of shots and unusual angles. Maybe with different angles, tilts and perspectives to the norm?

And of course, with the bridesmaids and best man on my side, I'll ask them to phone me when the pro is off doing something else or if I am off doing something and a "slot" becomes available to snap away

I'm not too concerned about getting "formal" shots as that is not what they want.

My views on this subject are probably not worth repeating, but alas, I can't resist.

I really have to question the motives of professional or aspiring photographers who seem hell-bent on floating around another pro's wedding assignment taking candids and sneaking some formals when no one's the wiser. Are you really doing out of the goodness of your heart as a gift to the bride and groom, or are you excited by the prospect of some portfolio additions and experience? Be honest.

I can guarantee that no matter how polite, professional and accommodating the paid pro is, he/she would rather you not be there at all. He/she would feel much more comfortable and at ease with their subjects with the knowledge that there are no snipers or vigilantes roaming in the shadows.

When my friends (who know I am a pro) ask me if I would mind taking some candids at their wedding whilst their photographer does his thing, I politely decline and explain that I would rather enjoy and celebrate the occasion with them rather than potentially causing any uneasiness with the person they have paid to do a job. I know from experience that it is much easier to get into the flow of a wedding when you're totally comfortable and you know no one else is shooting.

I never take my gear to weddings, my wife will often take a compact camera. There is honestly nothing more unprofessional looking that a pro/aspiring pro turning up at a wedding, gear in tow when he/she is not the contracted shooter.

That's my 2 cents, and I'm pretty comfortable with it.

Btw, the following quote really disturbed me:

rammy wrote in post #2416817
And of course, with the bridesmaids and best man on my side, I'll ask them to phone me when the pro is off doing something else or if I am off doing something and a "slot" becomes available to snap away

Are you for real? That's just ridiculous.