Why do the pro's do that on TV

Would anyone care to comment on the point that I raised that regardless of whether or not you think an omnibounce used outdoors provides any useful diffusion, it does allow you to work closer then what would normally be the minimum working distance for a given f stop.

Did anyone ever think that maybe the pros know it won't help in outdoor situations, but may provide stunning images indoors with a ceiling and since the Stofen doesn't really do anything outdoors, they just leave it on to save time?

I just can't help but think that regardless of what we think, they make money at this on a regular basis and I cannot image that any pro would use something to inhibit income...

scottbergerphoto wrote in post #2487430
Would anyone care to comment on the point that I raised that regardless of whether or not you think an omnibounce used outdoors provides any useful diffusion, it does allow you to work closer then what would normally be the minimum working distance for a given f stop.

I think it depends on the flash unit.

For example, the GN of the 580EX at 1/128 power is from 4.3 to 16.7 feet, depending on zoom setting. In the aperture ranges that are likely to be used outdoors, this will allow you to get pretty close (Example: at f/8 that's 0.53 to 2.1 feet. Even at f/2.8 it would give you 1.5 to 6 feet.). Anecdotal information I have read seems to indicate that the 580EX and similar units have a minimum output less than 1/128 power in E-TTL mode. With modern flash units such as this, I don't think minimum distance is likely to be a problem unless you're doing macro work with fairly wide apertures and undiffused flash.

Older auto-thyristor flash units are not so versatile. On my Sunpak 383 for example, the minimum distance in the automatic modes is a little more than 10% of the maximum distance. Care must be used with these units to select an automatic setting and corresponding aperture that gives you the distance range you need.

The papparazzi who shoot red carpet events never seem to lack for equipment budget. Most likely they are using high-end dedicated flash units from various manufacturers with capabilities similar to the 580EX.

Obviously, none of you guys have ever shot a red carpet event before! Let me say, that I am a professional photographer, and I make 100% of my income with my camera. I shoot on average about 5-7 red carpet events per week. I'm that guy you see on TV! Let me also correct "CurtisN" and say that we are NOT paparazzi, regardless of what they may call us on the celebrity news shows on TV. Paparazzi are the a-holes that chase people and hide in bushes. We are "red carpet photographers" or "event photographers", not paparazzi.

Also, I don't know where you are supposedly seeing all these diffusers?? I rarely see people using them. A few people do, but it depends on the situation. If they *are* using a diffuser, it's most likely one of those "cups" made by Gary Fong, and even those are rare. I have a Sto-fen omnibounce, but I would never use it on the carpet. It kills too much light and it slows your recycle time on your flash significantly, even using a Quantum turbo battery pack. You also have to be fairly close to use the talent. It's a little nicer/softer light, yes. And you *can* use them direct on TTL, but it's not *that* much better to warrant losing the recycle time. I also have a Lumiquest pocket bounce I use for inside when I'm right up close.

The overhead lighting is *not* there for us. It's there for video. The PR companies who setup the events couldn't give two s**ts about lighting for the photographers. Honestly, 90% of the time I can't use the light they provide for anything other than for focusing. Depending on the setup, they might be using tungsten cans, ARRIs, HMIs, ArriSun, winter lights, and every lighting situation is different. You better believe I'm going to take some test shots! Sometimes, especially if they have a white backdrop, I will use a 1-stop C.T.O gel over my flash, and 3200k white balance to even up my flash with the video lights, but most of the time we try to overpower the video lights and not use ambient at all.

Most of the events are at night, so I'm speaking mostly about night time setups. Things on the carpet happen fast, and I want fast shots, and I want them sharp! Depending on the situation, I typically shoot at 200 or 400 ISO, with an f-stop between f6.3 and f8, with a shutter between 1/125 and 1/200, and the flash on ETTL. Depending on whether or not the subject is wearing dark clothing or light, I will kick my flash up 1/3 to 2/3 over. Each flash has its own personallity though. I know some people who always go -1/3 to get the correct exposure.

Daytime setups are completely different. Then you're just using the flash as a fill/eye catchlight, so outdoors in direct sunlight, an omni bounce is pretty pointless, unless you're really close. Daytime events are usually at the Chinese Theatre or out on Hollywood Blvd in front of the El Capitan, or in Westwood at the Village Theatre. At any of those places, we're usually about 10-15 feet away from the talent. Again, from that distance, no point in using a diffuser.

Now, with all that said... there are guys actually *on* the carpet who have a completely different style. You will usually see them shooting with their flash bounced off of a piece of paper. That's right folks, and ordinary sheet of typing paper, and a lot of times, it's the "tip sheet" PR gave us with all the talent names on it! Why bring a sheet of paper when PR will usually give you one at the event. Free bounce card, woo hoo!!

There are also some people shooting ambient with a backup camera to get "moody" shots. But you have to shoot on f2.8 to f4.0, and hold very steady. Plus your depth of field will be very shallow and most shots will be somewhat soft. But hey, that's what makes them "moody" right?

For all the time and effort I take to get great shots, the magazines really don't care. I've seen them run the most god awful pictures, fuzzy, grainy, dark, out of focus, you name it. So that's why some "pros" don't even bother to worry about quality. They know it's all about volume sales, and they still get paid regardless!

Hope that cleared a few things up you guys!

A fundamental assumption being made is simply that all pro's are technically knowledgeable and competant! Bad assumption to make. The 'pro' is someone who makes a living at something, period. You can make money at something, with no training at all.

Thanks for the insights, LAPhotoguy. This part is interesting.

LAPhotoGuy wrote in post #2576682
For all the time and effort I take to get great shots, the magazines really don't care. I've seen them run the most god awful pictures, fuzzy, grainy, dark, out of focus, you name it. So that's why some "pros" don't even bother to worry about quality. They know it's all about volume sales, and they still get paid regardless!

I have seen those crappy shots that some of the magazines print. It's mind-boggling.

Not to thread jack, but I currently use one of them there Lumiquest pocket bouncers on my 580ex. For the most part, I like what it does, but it is just too damn prominant sitting on the top of my camera. I just ordered a Omni-Bouce for both my 580ex and 430ex. For those who have tried both, is there a signicant advantage of having one over the other?

EDIT: Yes! Yes! Curtis, oh master of light, help me!

Oh geez, don't call me "master" of anything. I'm just a hack with little professional experience, so I rely on my own version of common sense.

And that common sense tells me that when we take pictures of people, we tend to prefer soft shadows. And soft shadows only come from large light sources. If you bounce light off the ceiling, the ceiling becomes a large light source.

If you don't have a ceiling, then a "diffuser" that throws light in all directions merely wastes it. The Omni-Bounce doesn't create a larger light source if the light has nothing to bounce off. On the other hand, the Lumiquest Pocket Bouncer (or Promax System with white insert) is quite a bit larger than the flash lens. The very atribute that makes it "too damn prominent" is the atribute that makes it effective.

But if you're outdoors in daylight, using flash as fill rather than the main light source, then the effects of a larger light source are not so noticeable, and the narrow apertures required for flash sync shutter speed in daylight result in the need for lots of power. No matter what method of diffusion you choose, you won't get anywhere near the range of direct flash.

I'm completely in agreement with LAPhotoGuy regarding daytime outdoor flash. Direct, undiffused is the way to go.

Curtis N wrote in post #2580683
Oh geez, don't call me "master" of anything. I'm just a hack with little professional experience, so I rely on my own version of common sense.

And that common sense tells me that when we take pictures of people, we tend to prefer soft shadows. And soft shadows only come from large light sources. If you bounce light off the ceiling, the ceiling becomes a large light source.

If you don't have a ceiling, then a "diffuser" that throws light in all directions merely wastes it. The Omni-Bounce doesn't create a larger light source if the light has nothing to bounce off. On the other hand, the Lumiquest Pocket Bouncer (or Promax System with white insert) is quite a bit larger than the flash lens. The very atribute that makes it "too damn prominent" is the atribute that makes it effective.

But if you're outdoors in daylight, using flash as fill rather than the main light source, then the effects of a larger light source are not so noticeable, and the narrow apertures required for flash sync shutter speed in daylight result in the need for lots of power. No matter what method of diffusion you choose, you won't get anywhere near the range of direct flash.

I'm completely in agreement with LAPhotoGuy regarding daytime outdoor flash. Direct, undiffused is the way to go.

Right, right. I will say that I found the pocket bouncer to be quite effective indoors. So I guess it would make more sense to use the pocket bouncer as a much more effective portable large light source rather than a diffuser that is only effective if there's a nice white wall or ceiling to bounce off of. Got it! Or do I?

Think of it as a somewhat larger but less efficient on-camera light source. I use the white insert with my Promax System when I'm indoors, in big rooms with high ceilings (I consider any ceiling over 10 feet to be high). And always with a camera rotating flash bracket.

What is this "Promax System"? I googled but found this...

http://www.promax.com/

Try this link.
http://lumiquest.com/l​q931.htm

The Promax System is just their 80/20 bouncer along with a selection of inserts that are held in with velcro dots. When you use the white insert, it's basically identical in function to their Pocket Bouncer.

I have a different idea behind this...have you tried getting one of those damn things off of your flash? I have a 550EX and the Omni Bounce...it's a snug fit.

Curtis N wrote in post #2580811
Try this link.
http://lumiquest.com/l​q931.htm

The Promax System is just their 80/20 bouncer along with a selection of inserts that are held in with velcro dots. When you use the white insert, it's basically identical in function to their Pocket Bouncer.

I feel like a damn fool. I've actually checked out that site before. That's how I ended up with my pocket bouncer. LOL

So is the general consensus flash diffusers suck?

I'll do some personal experimenting the the pocket bouncer and Omni-bouncers when they get here. I'll probably end up keeping and using both systems for different applications.

Wow, I read three pages of posts and I still have a strong conviction that anyone can make good photos with any resources at hand, whether it be an omnibounce or bouncing off a piece of paper (Same as anyone can print crap with L glass and top notch gear, if without the proper knowledge).

A colleague uses his all the time. I have contemplated getting one (is not like I have to save or mortgage the house to get one), but last time I saw him, he was using it at a night time, low lit street parade . I thought this was silly.

I will still get the accessory, I think there are many uses for it. I have often improvised my own Gravina-Bounce for the flash, but these look really classy.

Good luck with the rest of the discussion, and goodness bless.