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Thread started 16 Mar 2004 (Tuesday) 16:47
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Jpeg Test

 
JZaun
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Mar 16, 2004 16:47 |  #1

I keep reading how Jpeg is degraded each time it is saved and it recompresses. This is a good argument for useing and saving raw. I did a little test to prove to me how much degradation is happening when I resave a jpeg file.

This is for info only,, I have still not made up my mind weather I want to use raw or all jpeg.

I took test pic #1 and saved it as test #1. I then loaded it in PSE2 tweeked it and resaved it 80 times.

Here are the results
Test 1=Orriginal
Test 40=saved 40 times
Test 80=saved 80 times

Unless I am doing something wrong (or right) :D I can not see any degradation after 80 re-saves. At least none that would worry me.

Test 1

IMAGE NOT FOUND
Byte size: ZERO | Content warning: NOT AN IMAGE


Test 40
IMAGE NOT FOUND
Byte size: ZERO | Content warning: NOT AN IMAGE


Test 80
IMAGE NOT FOUND
Byte size: ZERO | Content warning: NOT AN IMAGE



FYI only

JZaun

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maderito
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Mar 16, 2004 17:22 |  #2

Can you show 100% crops of some area in the images with good detail. Then let us judge if there is a difference. I'm not surprised that an approximately 4" X 6" image on my screen doesn't look different after multiple JPEG saves.

Also, just for completeness, what level of compression are you using in what imaging application?

Finally, I'm not sure how the JPEG compression alogrithm(s) work, but I suspect there would be more image degradation if the image file was slightly altered between saves. Thus if you go through cycles of Edit-Save-Edit-Save, even with minor edits, you might run into more problems.

Anyway, you've given us something to think more about.  :o


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JZaun
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Mar 16, 2004 17:51 |  #3

Here is a crop of each image

test 1

IMAGE NOT FOUND
Byte size: ZERO | Content warning: NOT AN IMAGE


test 40
IMAGE NOT FOUND
Byte size: ZERO | Content warning: NOT AN IMAGE


Test 80
IMAGE NOT FOUND
Byte size: ZERO | Content warning: NOT AN IMAGE


JZaun



  
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CoolToolGuy
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Mar 16, 2004 18:02 |  #4

What about various shapes and/or colors? I once took a picture of a cornfield, then walked across the road and took a picture of the cemetary that was there (various color gravestones, various shapes, brick wall, etc.), and the sizes of the files were vastly different. This image basically has black and brass (or whatever), and there is much similarity with the threads. Is it possible that a shot with more details and colors may have more loss with multiple saves?

Have Fun
Rick 8)


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maderito
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Mar 16, 2004 18:57 |  #5

Well, the original images and 100% crops are indistinguishable to my eye.

Here's why:

JPEG image compression FAQ
http://www.faqs.org/fa​qs/jpeg-faq/part1/ (external link)
By Tom Lane
March 1999

Subject: [10] Does loss accumulate with repeated compression/decompress​ion?
It would be nice if, having compressed an image with JPEG, you could
decompress it, manipulate it (crop off a border, say), and recompress it
without any further image degradation beyond what you lost initially.
Unfortunately THIS IS NOT THE CASE. In general, recompressing an altered
image loses more information. Hence it's important to minimize the number
of generations of JPEG compression between initial and final versions of an
image. . .

It turns out that if you decompress and recompress an image at the same
quality setting first used, relatively little further degradation occurs.
This means that you can make local modifications to a JPEG image without
material degradation of other areas of the image. (The areas you change
will still degrade, however.) Counterintuitively, this works better the
lower the quality setting. But you must use *exactly* the same setting,
or all bets are off. Also, the decompressed image must be saved in a
full-color format; if you do something like JPEG=>GIF=>JPEG, the color
quantization step loses lots of information. . .

The bottom line is that JPEG is a useful format for compact storage and
transmission of images, but you don't want to use it as an intermediate
format for sequences of image manipulation steps. Use a lossless 24-bit
format (PNG, TIFF, PPM, etc) while working on the image, then JPEG it when
you are ready to file it away or send it out on the net. If you expect to
edit your image again in the future, keep a lossless master copy to work
from. The JPEG you put up on your Web site should be a derived copy, not
your editing master.


Woody Lee
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Scottes
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Mar 16, 2004 19:11 |  #6

Your screw won't show the effect so much. The slight variations of colors hide the JPEG anomalies well.

Like this one, saved 40 times with Save For Web at Very High (80) quality

IMAGE: http://www.itsanadventure.com/postimages/geesejpgtest.jpg

The edges of objects - when very different color meet - usually will show the most degradation. "Solid" areas - which actually contain noise not quite visible to the eye - look terrible because the noise gets magnified.

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JZaun
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Mar 16, 2004 19:30 |  #7

Scottes
I know what you are saying but what was the orriginal like. How much crop? I can blow any pic out of the water by croping too much. I have shown 3 different real examples and I don't think anyone can see the degridation. All I am saying is that the jpeg is not going to be loaded and changed any near 20-40-80- times!

JZaun


Also hou many times would you save for the web, then save that pic for the web again and again?

:D




  
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evilenglishman
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Mar 16, 2004 19:36 |  #8

you must be doing something wrong as the file size for the second one is bigger than the first one


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Scottes
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Mar 16, 2004 19:42 |  #9

evilenglishman wrote:
you must be doing something wrong as the file size for the second one is bigger than the first one

That's actually expected.


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JZaun
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Mar 16, 2004 19:43 |  #10

See jpeg update for note on file size change.

JZaun




  
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evilenglishman
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Mar 16, 2004 19:43 |  #11

Scottes wrote:
evilenglishman wrote:
you must be doing something wrong as the file size for the second one is bigger than the first one

That's actually expected.

how can compressing something 80% and then compressing that (already compressed) image by 80% again double the file size?


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Scottes
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Mar 16, 2004 19:50 |  #12

evilenglishman wrote:
how can compressing something 80% and then compressing that (already compressed) image by 80% again double the file size?

See the explanation in Jerry's other thread.


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