Wow...I'm being published!

well, I'm a "pro" and didn't get a cent for the phone book cover this year. Didn't even get an ad, just a big photo credit without contact info. Then again the team I shoot for gave them the photo (which is a whole different story). If I had been the one they talked to negotiations would have gone totally different and I would have walked away with more. Anyways, it's different in every area but I haven't been contacted once by anyone seeing it, all new companies say it was word of mouth from other companies.

Just to throw two more cents in, it does hurt the industry when photogs give there stuff away as said by others (though yes you can just give it away - you own it). However, as discussed several times on this board weekend warriors giving it away takes business away from those trying to put food on the table. I know I've lost some business to teams because they don't want to pay - then there product (card sets/programs/other merch) kind of sucks with bad photos and they wonder why it doesn't sell. Other teams have gotten offers from people to shoot for free and tell them no we got what we need already. Compare it to any other business like an electrician. If someone goes around fixing all the electric problems for free or at cost that business is going to go under.

However, there's nothing saying you can't do a trade off of sorts. I've given a photo away for publication for an ad before, and the ad cost more than I would have got paid so it worked out. I shoot a team for "free" however get a few hundred dollars in other resources from them plus they push the living hell out of me to others, if a company calls they say they won't handle that and direct them to call me. Actually, that's another phone book I'm getting no pay for! But, the team will make up for it with a lot of "trade offs".

kendallphotos wrote in post #2821855

[GIFS ARE NOT RENDERED IN QUOTES]

Re: I'm being published!

Thank you for you comments and support. My wife is actually the photographer.

I assume you all started with one thing in common with my wife, loving taking photographs, and from what I have read some of you got too wrapped up in the buisness side of it. You forgot what it was like to have someone say "Wow you are talented, I love your work". Now you keep your best work sits unappreciated on your hard drives waiting for $$$.

That's a lot of assumin' there, champ. How about this: we all love taking photos. Some people have to eat based on the photos they sell. Those people don't give away their photos to large multinationals in exchange for pats on the back. People who don't sell photos to eat don't have that pressure (though that doesn't mean they need to be stupid about it). Reading your posts over the past few months, it would seem that you are trying to transition from the latter to the former. Giving your stuff away for nothing is not the way to accomplish this, and has the unintended consequence of making those who are already in the former category really, really dislike you.

Personally, I don't make my money from photos, I make my money from digital photo manipulation. But even as a non-pro shooter, I never give away my images to people who can pay me. Giving away freebies to large companies is not a smart thing to do. It devalues your work and makes it difficult for your work ever to find value again, since people will be used to getting it for free. Heck, even the street bums in Paris charge 10 or 20 Euros for their artwork. Even those 'starving artists' wouldn't give their work away to France Telecom for nothing.

IndyJeff wrote in post #2817480
Celebrate by going to the grocery store and getting a nice big steak, some asparagus, hollendaise sauce, a baking potato and top it of with a bottle of champaign. Don't worry about the cost, just tell the cashier what your celebrating. I am sure she will let you have all of it at no charge.

On the otherhand, if you would have charged them the $2000+ you should be getting, you could have afforded to go out and have that dinner made for you at a real nice restuarant.

Oh BTW lets us know how many people contact you from this "exposure", which I am sure will not be listed on the ad as it is not customary to list a photo credit on advertising..

Congrats on getting published but please know that chance of you gaining anything off of it is almost nil.

You know Indy, I know where you are coming from... but really it is a little over the top. I kicked off the restart shooting career by doing work for a local university just because I loved it and wanted the opportunity to shoot something exciting. Fast forward a couple of years and I know make about $ 5k a month from it as a side job. It's not huge money, but it pays for my travel habit. Secondly it allows me to actually put my schooling I got in Journalism\PR to work for the first time in 20+ years. It's not enough to support my family on, but is getting pretty real. And it all started out by me doing some free work. I now turn down work I don't have interet in or time for. Everyone pays their dues. Everyone needs to climb the pay scale. Hopefully this name recognition will kick this chaps work off by getting it in front of more eyeballs. It would be the first time a business/artist did freebies to get some name recognition out there.

There are ways to educate the chap how to take it to the next level without pissing on his good news.

chakalakasp - your so much into praising your self and beating this poor chap down, perhaps maybe you ought to look at your own work and wonder why your loosing business to free photographers. If you can't provide value worth more then free... I don't think it's the compitition that is the problem. If you have it so figured out, why don't you tell us how you would have generated the same exposure.

I used to run a significant part of an alliances organization for a fortune 100 company. I had a budget of 10 million us to do "free" deals to break into new markets. It is done everyday, in every business, in every industry. What you have to do is have a good enough product that once you have edged your compitition, you can charge full till and the customer still perceives value in it. How much do you think it would have cost this chap to get his image in front of 2000 households. Now how much do you think it would have cost to have that image delivered to their doorstep. If you can't find the value in this transaction, then your not looking hard enough. Money you don't have to spend, particularly in start up mode is just as good as cash in. It's business 101. Common', get off his back. It wasn't the most stupid thing to do. Not doing it perhaps would have been a stupid thing to do, particularly holding out for what, a few hundred. That is chump change compared to the value of cover page advertising.

And indy, that is the quote about calling someone an idiot.... from yours truly....chakalakasp..​.. who obviously hasn't figured out how to educate others without resorting to insults. I am sure that will be explained in the next section on how to garner more business through professionalism. It's too bad because he seems to be an ok photog... just hasn't learned how freaking small the world really is.

Croasdail wrote in post #2822335
chakalakasp - your so much into praising your self and beating this poor chap down, perhaps maybe you ought to look at your own work and wonder why your loosing business to free photographers. If you can't provide value worth more then free... I don't think it's the compitition that is the problem. If you have it so figured out, why don't you tell us how you would have generated the same exposure.

Where did I praise myself? AFAIK, I've never claimed to be a stellar photographer. Yeah, I sell and license photos, and yes, I get a lot of web exposure from time to time, but a Nat Geo photographer I'm not. On the other hand, you will be hard pressed to find a pro who thinks that giving freebies is the way to break into the photography biz.

You look at it as us beating the guy down; we're not. We're trying to help him. He can learn the easy way by reading about it from other photographers, or he can learn the hard way by doing it himself and failing and discovering that he's been going about it all wrong.

Yeah, but in this specific instance, the OP has edged his competition *how*? You don't get photo attribution on most ad sales, so how exactly is anyone going to know who he is to hunt him down to use his services? If they're offering him an advert with contact info on the front cover of the phone book, then by all means, it's worth giving them the photo -- a front cover ad is worth more than what the normal licensing fee would be. But this is not the arrangement that the OP described.

Uh, nothing? Getting your image in front of eyes is usually something that other people pay YOU for. Getting your advert in front of eyes is something that you usually pay others for. Thus arrangements like this, where someone who wants to put an advert in front of eyes would normally pay someone for a good image to put in front of eyes. The OP is getting his image in front of eyes without getting paid.

Again, most photographers get paid for the privelege of having their images delivered to people's doorsteps. Most photographers pay to have their personal adverts delivered to people's doorsteps. What the OP is getting is his image delivered to doorsteps, in the form of an advert for someone else (Sprint), not his own personal advert. Though apparently he does get some kind of advert inside the book itself, which is worth something.

If the OP is getting his own personal advert on the front page, then he has indeed garnered a windfall and I will gladly apologize for giving him incorrect advice.

O boy this is so Fredmiranda.com's Pro Section....

Can anyone tell me the photo that is on the phonebook they got this past year or the current phonebook without getting it out and looking at it? Ok, I imagine not more than 1 reader here could, if that many. Now who was that photo by? There is your exposure. How much is that worth? That guy is about as well known as he was before he did that cover ad.

I wonder if the original OP would have told Sprint that he/she would like $100 for the use of that image if Sprint would have still used it? Maybe they did like the image but, maybe they liked the price even more.

This is not much different than the people who "give away" their work by submitting it to the micro stock agencies. Imagine seeing your photo in a major ad campaign, you realize the business it's generating for the company using it and you got less than a dollar for it, $20 if you are real lucky. I suggest that you get the book ASMP Professional Business Practices In Photography 6th ed. There is a lot of information on how to arrive at pricing and also on negotiating. After reading it I may become a member of the ASMP (American Society for Media Photographers)

IndyJeff wrote in post #2823434
Can anyone tell me the photo that is on the phonebook they got this past year or the current phonebook without getting it out and looking at it? Ok, I imagine not more than 1 reader here could, if that many. Now who was that photo by? There is your exposure. How much is that worth? That guy is about as well known as he was before he did that cover ad.

I wonder if the original OP would have told Sprint that he/she would like $100 for the use of that image if Sprint would have still used it? Maybe they did like the image but, maybe they liked the price even more.

oh oh, I can! it's a photo of a minor league pitcher and the guy who took that pic was...oh crap whats his name...big fat guy but easy on the eyes...um, oh yea, me! (does that still count? ) You are right though, nothing new came of it being on there and noone is going digging through looking for who took it (except maybe other photographers). I've gotten no business from it and don't expect to. Was it cool to see, yea - was it a big benefit, no.

When I talk to a new "client" or someone like sprint or along those lines always try to find out what they usually pay. You can tell 95% of the time in how they respond to a question like "what do you you usually pay" or "what's your base (normal) rates" if you're going to see any money or anything good. I've NEVER had a company say no when they contacted me about a photo and I asked for something in return, they obviously already want the pic. If they are small and don't have a huge budget I will work with them, but always try to get "something" out of it because I AM doing this as a living, not a hobby. Also, almost every photo editor or some company looking for photos will give you the line "we'll give you photo credit in exchange for..." which is just to reel you into commiting fast without mention of pay. I've heard it countless times and thats when the question of payment, or trade off comes in. For example one magazine last year was trying to do his first issue ever, he came right out and told me the budget is horrible and they can't pay - ok, I got a 1/4 full color ad in return. You can work with companies without going "pay me x-amount or nothing".

As for the comment about getting lost in the business side of things, well that's pushing it a bit to make as a general statement (not saying others haven't pushed first). Personally, and not speaking for the others or there comments, but I do this cuz I love it and I'm trying to do it as a career. Some years are better than others, last year was the first one in 7 years I didn't have to sleep in my car for days/week at a time out on the road cuz I couldn't afford hotels. I lose business to those giving it away for free and it hurts me more than it benefits them as discussed in other threads (the weekend warrior has the income from a regular job, mine is takin pics). Being a starving artist isn't fun, living out of your car day to day isn't fun and I don't care how many pats on the back I got then (which were good) they didn't pay the bills.

Also, as I look over my shoulder I see an award hanging on the wall from Elvis given to my dad for helping him get a #1 hit. When Elvis was told to leave he didn't say "OK, I'll cut an album for free just to do it". He went and got another deal cuz almost every artist then was told no way they'd make it. Totally different situation when it comes to music, I ran a record label for 5 years or so before jumping into this full time (small indie broke label where we literally took back beer bottles one time to help funding for a CD!!), the main comparison is live shows for unsigned indie bands. Some bands play for free hoping to make money off the merch and get exposure, others want a fee - which is sometimes low but the club promotor goes with the band whos showing up for free just because they see that number. Same thing with pics, they see those numbers and don't think about the one that actually costs more being better or not.

btw, all the companies I work for pat my back telling me they love my work, difference is a check comes with it.....just my point of view, and in her case ya know, she got an ad outta the deal, is it the best deal no, will it create more business - who knows. so congrats on getting it, hopefully it does get more business....but also hopefully it didn't hurt that "top pro' in the area, for example if the last ten years they were getting paid for those covers and now they lost money - that answer idk, from my experience though phone books don't pay at all - which isn't right IMHO.

Ryan, you called the person and idiot.... that's where I got you felt you were better then they were. The problem happening here is becoming a "good" photographer frankly isn't that hard anymore. Technology has torn down a ton of the barriers that used to make it difficult. Some of the new P/S take amazing images now, and do a lot of the thinking for the photographer. The net effect of this is there is a flood of "good" images available. If you are just a "good" photographer as I am - not a great one - you had better have another source of income, or a low cost of living. It's just the way it is and no amount be whining or moaning is going to turn this ship around. Your options are to either become a great photographer, or find a way to work in the new economy. The problem of cheap to free sources of really good images isn't going to go away. Microstock agencies are here to stay, as are really good weekend shooters.

As to this cover not being an advertisement, your so wrong with this. Everytime you have an image out there, it is advertising your work. That is why named credit is so important. It is also why it is important to never putting anything sub-par out there there as well. Local image buyers are very aware of what is out there and who produced it. Maybe not the average mom and pop, but those who do image placement for a living are looking for talent. And it is up to the photographer to make mileage from something like this and letting anyone who will hear that this is image is theirs. Getting 2000 impressions out there is a golden opportunity. It's up to the photographer to turn that in to business. Any photographer that sits and waits for their phone to ring is foolish. I sent out anywhere up to 10 proposals a week outbound. It works for my kind of business. They always include a list of places the potential client can see my work. I surely would highlight a cover shot. Anyway. Thats just how it has worked for me. Different people have different paths.

But I do think we should use the same civility used in the photo sharing area. If you can constructively help someone learn how to do something better, do it. But referring to a person or a class of people as idiots... just not helpful. To have such a strong opinion of what others are doing, you have better have your own act in perfect shape.

Im getting the same flack on another thread for giving away photos.that cover might be worth $2000, but if sprint ran a contest to get your picture on the cover of that same phone book. No prize just the cover almost 1/3 of this web site would submit entries.
If that was the case Sprint wins twice free cover and advertising the contest.

steve535 wrote in post #2824130
Im getting the same flack on another thread for giving away photos.that cover might be worth $2000, but if sprint ran a contest to get your picture on the cover of that same phone book. No prize just the cover almost 1/3 of this web site would submit entries.
If that was the case Sprint wins twice free cover and advertising the contest.

Steve, I have been following the other thread and seeing the same kinds of attitudes/comments thrown your direction.

In away the cover for Sprint is a contest, they ask for submissions and pick the cover photo based on it's own merits.

Contrary to what has been said my wife's work was not choosen because it was free... everyone who submits, is well aware that they will only receive ad space as compensation.

Maybe, my wife was the only person who submitted, possible but unlikely.

BTW.... Since this thread was started, Sprint contacted us and choose another one of her photos for the cover of a nearby
city! I guess to some in this forum it makes her a double loser!

kendallphotos wrote in post #2824292
Steve, I have been following the other thread and seeing the same kinds of attitudes/comments thrown your direction.

In away the cover for Sprint is a contest, they ask for submissions and pick the cover photo based on it's own merits.

Contrary to what has been said my wife's work was not choosen because it was free... everyone who submits, is well aware that they will only receive ad space as compensation.

Maybe, my wife was the only person who submitted, possible but unlikely.

BTW.... Since this thread was started, Sprint contacted us and choose another one of her photos for the cover of a nearby
city! I guess to some in this forum it makes her a double loser!

All you have seen are the insults and not the message...the message you see is a bunch of whiny professional photographers...

all they are trying to so is inform you that winning the cover spot does not actually earn you much in terms of actual revenue unless your name is ON the front cover or you received a years worth of free advertising...than you are not simply giving away your image...

This thread has likely soured your taste on this excellent thread but I will tell you that I have benefitted immensely from this forum and I think if you were to pluck the information out of this thread you too would benefit...


Cheers,

Agree with Symes on his comments. Intent was good.... delivery was poor.

Guys... don't worry about it too much. I just know this is a subject Indy feels very strongly about. On any other subject, he would bend over backwards to help someone starting out. And in his own way, he was trying to help here by not having you all sell your selves or your art short. It is truly frustrating to work very hard to perfect your skills to deliver quality images only to have customers turn to free images because they don't value that quality. There is a huge difference between good and great photography, just most are trained well enough to appreciate the difference. And this by no means is any kind of judgement of your work at all. Haven't seen it, it could be the best in the world. But it is very true that being able to earn a living wage is becoming harder and is weeding out the average pro photographers real fast.

Cheers and best of luck with it.

kendallphotos wrote in post #2821599
Less expensive! Yeah that's a poor business plan... Quick someone tell Walmart before they go broke!

You obviously didn't read any of the posts previous to this one, nor do you have any idea what you are talking about.

Congratulations, you can make a comment that is
a) out of context
b) immature
c) not even funny

I was having a mature discussion (Here is a link to the definition of mature in case you don't know) on the fact that it is guys like the OP who drive the business of photography down.

It is guys like the company I am talking about, who offers to do league photos for $2.50 that drive other league photographers down. No one can do it for $2.50, and because this company is doing "a favor" (call it what you will), they are setting the bar for future companies. This bar is, unfortunately very low.

Now, in case you didn't quite comprehend the comment that you quoted in your post, let me explain it further.

I am saying that if Company A (my competitor) sells the league photos for $2.50 to the organization, as a favor, then next year, why on earth would the organization go for another company (Company B - Company Z) that charges $10.00?

It is people like the OP that set the standard and lowers the value of our work. This is what my discussion was about.

Next time you decide to make a smart ass remark why don't you think about it first.