Wow...I'm being published!

Ok lets end the bickering.

The OP made a mistake. That is what forums like POTN are for: Learning.

Kendallphotos, learn from this mistake. Nothing in life is free. I understand and can appreciate that free exposure is your best marketing campaign (as it is for many photographers), but you need to know when to offer it for free.

I think giving away free photos is a great idea for breaking into the market, BUT, you don't give away a free photo to a multi-national company!

I am talking about, for example, going to a local hockey game and photographing it. Get some fantastic pictures, find your favorite and print a 5"x7" of it and give it to the kid's parents. Tell them that if they or any of the other parents want to see more, to go to your web gallery. Give them a business card.

THIS is where free photos will benefit you. Not giving away a free photo to a company that will make tens of thousands of dollars off of it. Do you think that kids parents are going to make any money off of that photo? Heck no! But they will see how terrific your work is and will provide WORD OF MOUTH advertising for you - the best advertising a photographer can ask for.

Do you think the guys over at Sprint are going to be talking about your photo the second after they get the photo from you? Heck no! But the parents will look at the photo and say "wow, that's a good picture of Johnny, look at his face! I wonder if he got one of my son? I'll check out his web gallery".

We aren't trying to be harsh, only realistic. Obviously, it is great that you got it published. You must really have some great work. Take pride in that. Congratulations, have your moment of fame, but learn something from the experience.

There's one point which people don't get with all this... I agree it's hard to get into business, but being cheap or even free is not right way anyway. Why? It's pretty simple, but it still takes at least a bit logic...

So let's say I'm new to business. I don't have clients, and it's really hard to get clients (believe me I actually know this from my own experience). Somehow I got all equipment and knowledge I need, to make good photos. All I need are some clients. Since I have no name, I can't get them for same price as others who are in business for years. So I decide and offer my photos for free. Fine, I get bunch of clients who are happy since they are getting free but still quality photos. Perfect, my business will be blooming when I will start charging. Right? Errr. Wrong!!!

After year, two, three, I decide I have enough big client base so I start charging same as others did before. Errr wrong again! Since others had to keep at least some of their clients, they lowered their prices. So I can't charge my clients same as they did before, but only smaller price.

Ok still better then nothing at all. Well... wrong again. From today on, there's another player on market... Second me from year ago. He just came to this business, he's without clients and without name, so he goes same way as I went. He offers photos for free. Do you really think my clients will stay with me? Yeah dream on. They will jump the boat and run to this new guy. So where am I? One year down the road, with no clients again, and with smaller price for everyone else.

I hope you see point now, why we don't think it's so great deal giving photos around for free. Yes one person won't damage market, but 100s or 1000s people with same thinking will.

And I don't think we are hardened or anything else. I still think we all love this job, otherwise we wouldn't be doing it... well I can't speak for all of us, but at least for me it is so. But I don't love it enough, or at least I can't afford it, to give my work around for free, while someone else will be getting bunch of money from my work. Sorry it doesn't go this way.

bcap wrote in post #2824560
You obviously didn't read any of the posts previous to this one, nor do you have any idea what you are talking about.

Congratulations, you can make a comment that is
a) out of context
b) immature
c) not even funny

I was having a mature discussion (<a href = "http://dictionary.ref​erence.com/browse/matu​re" Here </a> is a link to the definition of mature in case you don't know) on the fact that it is guys like the OP who drive the business of photography down.

Next time you decide to make a smart ass remark why don't you think about it first.

Thank you, for your link to a dictionary. But I fully understand the the meaning of the word mature.

I agree that my comments regarding Walmart were not mature, but not any less mature than calling me an idiot.

I have learned the lessons that you all have tried to convey, although the delivery could have been better.

I came to this and other forums to learn, and over the past several months I have done just that. There are a lot of talented people here and I am greatful to have such resources. I can only hope that sometime in the future I can be 25% as talented as some of you are.

Although, I agree with everyone that working for free is a poor business plan. However... I did not do this for free there are other kinds of compensation, than monetary.

Now if you excuse me for a bit, I am going to lick my wounds.

Nothing was meant to be hurtful. No one called you an idiot. We are all just trying to help. It is better to have the raw truth than something that is sugarcoated. It is the only way we learn, imo.

Best of luck.

[QUOTE=chakalakasp;281​8854] Nobody is going to pay for things that they can get from idiots for free. And if nobody is going to pay for good photography, then you can scratch that off of your list of future professional possibilities.quote]

Maybe this statement was not calling ME an idiot directly, but it was sure close.

I do regret starting this thread... But I see a lot of pats on the backs in these forums. Like when a person buys a new lens, I see all the congrats... "now go shoot a duck".

Don't get me wrong, I can take constructive advice, but from where I am sitting most of what I got was destructive.

Next time I'll stick to posting when I buy a new piece of equipment. BTW, I got a new 17-40L and a 100 f/2.8 macros recently.

In closing... I agree lets stop bickering.

Kendall, no one was putting you down, nor did anyone call you an idiot. It was a generalization at people who don't learn from their lessons (i.e. this lesson for you) and keep selling free photos. THOSE guys are idiots.

Please, keep posting, do not limit yourself. We are all only trying to help.

Congrats on the lenses! What body do you use? How is the macro? You try it out yet?

Please don't get discouraged.

kendall I don't think it was meant at you directly, the idiot remark that is. However I can see how you were devestated by the comments you received and wished that you would have never started this thread. I think that is a wrong way to think tho. You received a heck of an education by starting this thread, don't you think?
I think it was bcap who said that giving away images to a company as large as sprint is not a good thing and, he was correct in that. Chances are they have an advertising budget for things such as this. At the end of the year if they come in under budget the people in that dept get a bonus. Buy saving $2000+ on your photo, you are giving someone a $500+ bonus for Christmas that I am sure their wife/husband and kids will really appreciate it.

Not wanting, or meaning to take away from your accomplishment, getting published is real easy when you are giving it away. Getting published and getting paid for it is a challenge and a real accomplishment.
A local paper who pays $10-$25 for a picture is where you want to give away your photos, not on the cover of a phone book advertising for a large corporation like Sprint.

I have fallen for the "in exchange for advertising" ploy before as many of us have. So far I have never had any such venture payback what I would have charged for the image in the first place. Word of mouth is the best you can get when it comes to advertising. The next time someone asks me for an image in exchange for "advertising" I will accpet it only if they will provide a written guarentee that within 6 months I will gain the equal to what I would have charged them for the photo. I don't think I will get many takers for a deal like that because they know as well as I do that chances are I won't see that return for the investment I made by giving them the photo.

This thread is worthless without seeing the picture in question.

Heatseeker99 wrote in post #2826333
This thread is worthless without seeing the picture in question.

He gave them exclusive rights to the photo, I think that means he can't post it here, unless I am wrong.

the only times I see getting published being good if your a wedding photog and your pix are being published by the latest wedding magazines. Or if you are an extreme sports shooter and your pix are being published by such publications. Because only people who are interested in the subject matter will be attracted to who shot what.

Heatseeker99 wrote in post #2826333
This thread is worthless without seeing the picture in question.

I don't think that we need to see the picture to make the determinations that have been made here. Would be nice but certainly has not made it a worthless thread.

First of all congratulations on being published; but it does sound like you have been used.

After years working in PR I'm guessing that Sprint outsourced the production of the phone book to someone else at a certain price (I often outsourced publications). The people putting the phone book together tried on the free photo trick and got away with it and have pocketed the money that would have been budgeted for photography. Terrible ethics on their part unfortunately it happens all the time.

Kendall don't look on this thread as criticism of you or your photographic ability but rather as a learning experience. If you are good enough to be published you are good enough to be paid and if you find yourself in a similar situation in the future you will be much better equipped to negotiate a fair price for your work.

I don't see anything wrong with doing this once to get your work out there. I am positive he wasn't the only one willing to do it for free as there are many more trying to get into it than there are already established.

This would help his self-esteem and show him next time he could negotiate a price.

I believe the hardest part is getting that first publication and from there it should get better with experiences.

He might not have got paid but he was the only one in that book that got his add for free and will be seen most likely by more than other adds

In the end it's a add if he gets his info with it on the cover.

Congrats

bcap wrote in post #2824640
Ok lets end the bickering. .......

....giving away a free photo to a company that will make tens of thousands of dollars off of it.

They are not making the money off his photo but from people paying to advetise their businesses so he "kinda" got a deal. He could potentially get hundreds of calls from it, people looking for photographer in the directory will most likely use a him as they can see his work rather than a add which they will be taking their chances with.

They give those books away so the front cover doesn't help it in any way.

I am no expert in this field but I too would love to get my image out to thousands of potential customers, that's gotta be worth something.

First off the phone company is not going to put an ad in a phone book because someone provided an image for another ad at no charge.

All this talk about the photo credit getting him publicity and getting his name out there, have any of you looked to see who did the images for the cover of your local phone book? I did and there is no credit given anywhere on the cover or inside, that I could find so, what kind of free publicity is he getting?