Approve the Cookies
This website uses cookies to improve your user experience. By using this site, you agree to our use of cookies and our Privacy Policy.
OK
Forums  •   • New posts  •   • RTAT  •   • 'Best of'  •   • Gallery  •   • Gear
Guest
Forums  •   • New posts  •   • RTAT  •   • 'Best of'  •   • Gallery  •   • Gear
Register to forums    Log in

 
FORUMS Post Processing, Marketing & Presenting Photos RAW, Post Processing & Printing 
Thread started 27 Mar 2007 (Tuesday) 19:25
Search threadPrev/next
sponsored links (only for non-logged)

STICKY:  Color problems? [work in progress?]

 
René ­ Damkot
Cream of the Crop
Avatar
39,856 posts
Likes: 8
Joined Feb 2005
Location: enschede, netherlands
     
Mar 27, 2007 19:25 |  #1

Thought I'd write up a single, rather long post, to keep my postcount within limits, and get some links grouped together ;)

Do you see a difference between Photoshop and another program? Likely this has something to do with (the other program not using) colormagement...

For starters: Check whether the other program is color managed.
AFAIK, Windows explorer is not (before Vista, that is), Windows Picture and Fax Viewer is "half" colormanaged AFAIK (It will honour an image's ICC profile but not the monitor's), ACDSee (non Pro) is not, Breeze Browser is not, iView Media (non pro) is not, iPhoto is not (not sure about newer versions).
A lot of web browser (anything on Windows, all but Safari and IE (when set) on OSX) do not use color management.
FireFox 3 can be set to color manage, and does so better then Safari (external link). Highly recommended!

Not sure about your browser? Try it here (external link) or here (external link), or more dramatically: Here (external link)

If you are using a working color space other then sRGB, the differences can be quite shocking.
So, if you don't know a thing about color management, you might want to stick to sRGB. (Or learn a bit about color management)

First off: there will *allways* be a (slight) difference between a non color managed application and PS, even displaying an sRGB file: That's the difference between your display profile and the sRGB standard.
If you are comparing an image with a different working space then sRGB (AdobeRGB or ProfotoRGB for instance), you'll see a*huge* mismatch.

The only 'solution' is to not use colormangement in PS (set 'Monitor Color' in PS color prefs). That throws color management out the window. Not a good solution IMHO: No way of telling what your image looks like on any other monitor or in print.... For more or less the same reason: *never, ever* use your monitor profile as working space!

What works better, is to get a basic understanding of color management, and set up everything correctly.

To do that, first check your monitor profile: Go to this page (external link) by Norman Koren. Scroll down, there are a few quick tests to see if your monitor is profiled more or less okay...
If your monitor profile is corrupt, something like this might happen. (The solution was found at last: click)
(Another Check here (external link))

A few links on monitor calibration can be found in this post by PhotosGuy.

Calibrating dual monitors can be done, depending on calibrator, video card and OS.
For windows look here (external link)

Test images for LCD screens can be found here (external link).

Easiest way to get your monitor calibrated, is by buying a calibrating device. Lots of them availiable. Search for Eye One, Monaco Optix, Colorvision Spider, Pantone Huey, to name a few. Another (cheaper) option would be to use something like Adobe Gamma: Click (external link)

Another option:

Tdragone wrote:
Borrowlenses.com (Out of San Francisco in the US) now rents out the Spyder calibration system for US$20.00 for a 1 week rental.

http://www.borrowlense​s.com …ories/monitor_c​alibration (external link)

If your monitor is (more or less) calibrated, and you're still "seeing problems", it might be time to dive a bit into Color Mangement.


Start off (after calibrating your monitor) by setting Photoshops color settings something like this (click image to enlarge):

IMAGE: http://www.moonglade.net/rene/POTN/color/PSCS2Color_tmb.jpg
IMAGE LINK: http://www.moonglade.n​et …POTN/color/PSCS​2Color.jpg  (external link)

The 'RGB Working space' is a case of personal preference. (Also take a look at the "sRGB or AdobeRGB" links at the bottom of this post!)
As long as the color management policies are set like this, most problems will be avoided. (Or at least you'll get notified that there is a potential problem)

If you use DPP, be sure to set the monitor profile. (the program is too stupid to figure it out for itself ;))
(Edit: Latest version (windows) seems to have the option to set it so the 'system profile' is used)
IMAGE: http://www.moonglade.net/rene/POTN/color/DPP-color_tmb.jpg
IMAGE LINK: http://www.moonglade.n​et …OTN/color/DPP%2​0color.jpg  (external link)

Again, work color space is personal preference, but it would make most sense to use the same working space as in PS...

When converting a file, make sure to embed the profile. In DPP (or whatever Raw converter of choice might be): tick the checkbox:
IMAGE: http://www.moonglade.net/rene/POTN/color/DPP-profile_tmb.jpg
IMAGE LINK: http://www.moonglade.n​et …N/color/DPP%20p​rofile.jpg  (external link)


If you shoot jpg, the profile will allready be in the file.

Now, if your default working space is not sRGB, you'll get lousy display in a non color managed application (like most web browsers) if you don't convert to sRGB before saving an image for web.

Unfortunately, "Save for web" does not do this all by itself... (Edit: CS3 and CS4 offer the option)
I find it easiest to make a keyboard shortcut for it for single images: (I use an action when I'm doing a lot)
IMAGE: http://www.moonglade.net/rene/POTN/color/PSCS2-keyboard-tmb.jpg
IMAGE LINK: http://www.moonglade.n​et …0keyboard%20sho​rtcuts.jpg  (external link)

Alternatively, go Edit > Convert to profile (PSCS2) or Image > Mode > Convert to profile (PSCS). Don't know for sure where it is on other versions, but probabely one of these two...

When converting from, say AdobeRGB to sRGB, the colors should not change (by much). Only colors that are out of sRGB Gamut (like very saturated greens) change a bit, depending on rendering intent used. (see link on the bottom of this page)

Note that there is also an option "Assign Profile". Do not use that. The *only* time you assign a profile, is when the document doesn't have one embedded. And if the document doesn't have an embedded profile, someone (likely you) made an error...
(That's why the warning boxes in the PS CM settings are ticked)

Next, make sure WYSIWYG in the 'Save for web' window, or just use "Save as" and keep the EXIF in the image (Which I prefer)
IMAGE: http://www.moonglade.net/rene/POTN/color/PSCS2-save-for-web_tmb.jpg
IMAGE LINK: http://www.moonglade.n​et …S2%20save%20for​%20web.jpg  (external link)

Note this is the setting I use, because I use Safari, which is color managed. If you want to see what a non color managed browser looks like, you need to select 'Uncompensated Color'. This will show you what the jpg will look like in a non color managed app. The colors in the document are not affected however (they are the same as the original when viewed in a color managed app)... Logical annit.

Regardless of the method used for saving an image, IMHO a profile should always be embedded, if only for those of us using Safari for browsing, or for later, correct viewing in a color managed application..

Some general CM links: (hey, at least now I can find them back :lol:)

The ultimate resource: Bruce Fraser (external link)
The most recommended book about Color Management. (external link) By Bruce Fraser.
Canon article about Color Management (external link), part two (external link).
Reviews of equipment (external link) like Monitor & printer profilers.
'Favourite CM links (external link) in the Digital Outback Photo Forums.
Colour Management. (external link). as explained by Cambridge In Colour
Color Management (external link). Yet another site.
What Norman Koren (external link) has to say on Color Management.
Color remedies (external link): links and articles
Information on Profiles (external link) from the ICC
Wide Open (color) Spaces (external link); Bruce Fraser
Digital Dog (external link); lots of good pdf files
Color Management and Your Display. (external link) by Andrew Rodney
Color Management Myths (external link) Read all 28 of them!


Color space conversion and rendering intents:

What Rendering Intent to use? (external link)
Color space conversion & Rendering intent (external link)
A graphic explanation of Rendering intent (external link)
Another link about Rendering Intent. (external link)
Out of Gamut: Realizing Good Intentions with Rendering Intents (external link)
Color Management Myths (external link): Sometimes Perceptual isn't perceptual


Color spaces and working space:

ICC site (external link)
sRGB or Adobe RGB (external link). Why sRGB might be a better choice sometimes.
Another link about sRGB vs. Adobe (external link), with some 'real life' examples.
sRGB or Adobe RGB (external link). Same story, also about 8 vs. 16 bit.
What about ProPhoto RGB? (external link)
A bit more on ProPhotoRGB, to help understanding some problems. (external link)
Why ProPhotoRGB might not be best. (external link)
A few more spaces (external link) by HutchColor
Info on working spaces, (external link) including graphic representations.
UPDIG guidlines (external link)
Interactive graphic representations of color spaces. (external link)

Misc. programs & links

A pdf (external link) about color management in Lightroom.

A bit more on Color management and web browsers (external link)
A few images to test the monitor. (external link)
A DAM comparison (external link)
What Monitor Calibrator? (external link)
Shootsmarter on Monitor Calibration (external link) (Also a few further links, which require logging in)
Another site on Monitor Calibration. (external link)
DryCreek Photo on Monitor Calibrating and Profiling (external link)
A thread explaining the difference between calibrating and profiling of a monitor. (Yes I've very probabely used the word 'calibrating' a few times where I should have said 'profiling'.)

Printing?

Post at the end of this thread, concerning soft proofing.

Softproofing (external link) as explained on LL.
Very nice first part of a video tutorial (external link) on LL
Softproofing (external link) as explained by Bruce Fraser
And another explanation. (external link)

How to use ICC Printer Profiles (external link)
Using Printer Profiles with Digital Labs (external link)

On printing and profiles with Canon printers
Downloadable profiles for higher end Canon printers (external link)
Softproofing and Printing with an Epson 3800 (external link).
CS3, OSX and CM printing (external link).
Some test images. (external link)
PDF by Adobe (external link)about a Color managed workflow.
A whole load of PDFs (external link) on the XRite site, explaining Workflows - Using Profiles with Third-Party Applications.
The color management chain (external link) by Gballard
HP and OSX (external link)
HP and Windows (external link)


If anyone wants to add: Please do...

"I think the idea of art kills creativity" - Douglas Adams
Why Color Management.
Color Problems? Click here.
MySpace (external link)
Get Colormanaged (external link)
Twitter (external link)
PERSONAL MESSAGING REGARDING SELLING OR BUYING ITEMS WITH MEMBERS WHO HAVE NO POSTS IN FORUMS AND/OR WHO YOU DO NOT KNOW FROM FORUMS IS HEREBY DECLARED STRICTLY STUPID AND YOU WILL GET BURNED.

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
tim
Light Bringer
Avatar
51,010 posts
Likes: 375
Joined Nov 2004
Location: Wellington, New Zealand
     
Mar 27, 2007 19:44 |  #2

Rene, great idea. I find it very difficult to read though, your later pictures are wide so to read each line I have to scroll the screen back and forth. I'd suggest making the images smaller, or linking to them instead, perhaps with thumbnails.

I can proof read it for you once I can see it properly, if you like.


Professional wedding photographer, solution architect and general technical guy with multiple Amazon Web Services certifications.
Read all my FAQs (wedding, printing, lighting, books, etc)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
PacAce
Cream of the Crop
Avatar
26,900 posts
Likes: 40
Joined Feb 2003
Location: Keystone State, USA
     
Mar 27, 2007 20:06 |  #3

Good stuff, Rene. I'll sticky this thread and also include a link to it in the FAQ thread. :)


...Leo

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
René ­ Damkot
THREAD ­ STARTER
Cream of the Crop
Avatar
39,856 posts
Likes: 8
Joined Feb 2005
Location: enschede, netherlands
     
Mar 27, 2007 20:26 |  #4

Done, never thought about thumbs :oops: Better?
Looks like my screen is bigger then yours Tim :lol:
If you want to proof read: Yes please!


"I think the idea of art kills creativity" - Douglas Adams
Why Color Management.
Color Problems? Click here.
MySpace (external link)
Get Colormanaged (external link)
Twitter (external link)
PERSONAL MESSAGING REGARDING SELLING OR BUYING ITEMS WITH MEMBERS WHO HAVE NO POSTS IN FORUMS AND/OR WHO YOU DO NOT KNOW FROM FORUMS IS HEREBY DECLARED STRICTLY STUPID AND YOU WILL GET BURNED.

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
tim
Light Bringer
Avatar
51,010 posts
Likes: 375
Joined Nov 2004
Location: Wellington, New Zealand
     
Mar 28, 2007 02:45 |  #5

All I have is a little 19" LCD :p

That all looks good, though personally for people who don't know anything about color I recommend sRgb, just because it's generally more compatible. I might also mention something about the difference between embedded and converting. I'd probably also link directly to Bruce's book (external link).


Professional wedding photographer, solution architect and general technical guy with multiple Amazon Web Services certifications.
Read all my FAQs (wedding, printing, lighting, books, etc)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
René ­ Damkot
THREAD ­ STARTER
Cream of the Crop
Avatar
39,856 posts
Likes: 8
Joined Feb 2005
Location: enschede, netherlands
     
Mar 28, 2007 06:28 |  #6

Done.


"I think the idea of art kills creativity" - Douglas Adams
Why Color Management.
Color Problems? Click here.
MySpace (external link)
Get Colormanaged (external link)
Twitter (external link)
PERSONAL MESSAGING REGARDING SELLING OR BUYING ITEMS WITH MEMBERS WHO HAVE NO POSTS IN FORUMS AND/OR WHO YOU DO NOT KNOW FROM FORUMS IS HEREBY DECLARED STRICTLY STUPID AND YOU WILL GET BURNED.

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
In2Photos
Cream of the Crop
Avatar
19,813 posts
Likes: 6
Joined Dec 2005
Location: Near Charlotte, NC.
     
Mar 28, 2007 07:51 as a reply to  @ René Damkot's post |  #7

Good stuff Rene. I am slowly making my way through Fraser's book but I will definitely use this as a resource until I understand this stuff completely.


Mike, The Keeper of the Archive

Current Gear and Feedback

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
cosworth
I'm comfortable with my masculinity
Avatar
10,933 posts
Likes: 14
Joined Jul 2005
Location: Duncan, BC, Canada
     
Mar 29, 2007 14:45 |  #8

I have a couple examples of why you need to convert to profile after you've calibrated your monitor.

Since I'm a PC user my browser IE7 (or so I thought) didn't do much with colour management.

You may or may not see colour differences here. But as a Winblows user I do.

IMAGE NOT FOUND
HTTP response: 404 | MIME changed to 'text/html' | Byte size: ZERO

IMAGE NOT FOUND
HTTP response: 404 | MIME changed to 'text/html' | Byte size: ZERO

IMAGE NOT FOUND
HTTP response: 404 | MIME changed to 'text/html' | Byte size: ZERO

people will always try to stop you doing the right thing if it is unconventional
Full frame and some primes.

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
René ­ Damkot
THREAD ­ STARTER
Cream of the Crop
Avatar
39,856 posts
Likes: 8
Joined Feb 2005
Location: enschede, netherlands
     
Mar 30, 2007 05:27 |  #9

The last image is ProPhotoRGB without a profile I'd think...
Nice example.


"I think the idea of art kills creativity" - Douglas Adams
Why Color Management.
Color Problems? Click here.
MySpace (external link)
Get Colormanaged (external link)
Twitter (external link)
PERSONAL MESSAGING REGARDING SELLING OR BUYING ITEMS WITH MEMBERS WHO HAVE NO POSTS IN FORUMS AND/OR WHO YOU DO NOT KNOW FROM FORUMS IS HEREBY DECLARED STRICTLY STUPID AND YOU WILL GET BURNED.

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
tim
Light Bringer
Avatar
51,010 posts
Likes: 375
Joined Nov 2004
Location: Wellington, New Zealand
     
Mar 30, 2007 07:44 |  #10

René Damkot wrote in post #2954211 (external link)
The last image is ProPhotoRGB without a profile I'd think...
Nice example.

Agreed, doesn't make a lot of sense to me otherwise.


Professional wedding photographer, solution architect and general technical guy with multiple Amazon Web Services certifications.
Read all my FAQs (wedding, printing, lighting, books, etc)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
cosworth
I'm comfortable with my masculinity
Avatar
10,933 posts
Likes: 14
Joined Jul 2005
Location: Duncan, BC, Canada
     
Mar 30, 2007 17:18 |  #11

I double checked, it was saved with sRGB, not ProPhoto. No ICC profile included.


people will always try to stop you doing the right thing if it is unconventional
Full frame and some primes.

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
René ­ Damkot
THREAD ­ STARTER
Cream of the Crop
Avatar
39,856 posts
Likes: 8
Joined Feb 2005
Location: enschede, netherlands
     
Mar 31, 2007 08:15 |  #12

On my color managed browser (Safari) the first two (with profile) look identical. The last one is obviously off.
In Firefox, the first two look different from Safari, but the Prophoto RGB image looks the same as the one without a profile.
Like in the first attachment (where I turned CM off on pprgb.jpg)


HOSTED PHOTO
please log in to view hosted photos in full size.



HOSTED PHOTO
please log in to view hosted photos in full size.


"I think the idea of art kills creativity" - Douglas Adams
Why Color Management.
Color Problems? Click here.
MySpace (external link)
Get Colormanaged (external link)
Twitter (external link)
PERSONAL MESSAGING REGARDING SELLING OR BUYING ITEMS WITH MEMBERS WHO HAVE NO POSTS IN FORUMS AND/OR WHO YOU DO NOT KNOW FROM FORUMS IS HEREBY DECLARED STRICTLY STUPID AND YOU WILL GET BURNED.

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
StealthLude
Goldmember
Avatar
3,680 posts
Joined Dec 2005
     
Apr 02, 2007 17:05 |  #13

thanks for making this a sticky, its always nice to have something to use and go back to for refrence.


[[Gear List]]

Skype: Stealthlude

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
TMR ­ Design
Cream of the Crop
Avatar
23,883 posts
Likes: 12
Joined Feb 2006
Location: Huntington Station, NY
     
Apr 07, 2007 08:34 as a reply to  @ StealthLude's post |  #14

Thank you René,

Color managment is a confusing and ongoing problem for many people. Thanks for creating this thread. Many will benefit from it.


Robert
RobertMitchellPhotogra​phy (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Jaythan
Member
Avatar
110 posts
Joined Jan 2007
     
Apr 26, 2007 13:38 |  #15

I stopped trying to fix my problem after a lot of tries. This was about four months ago, and I don't remember what exactly I did, so I am hoping you guys can guide me to what settings to use, and if they look ok on your end.

BTW, I'm using a MacBook with an uncalibrated lcd.

Here are a few screen caps:

Photoshop on the left, Camino (mac web browser) on the right.

IMAGE: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v310/cl_jay/comparison.jpg

These are the settings I used to save the pic for the web
IMAGE: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v310/cl_jay/8bit.jpg

IMAGE: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v310/cl_jay/assignprofile.jpg

IMAGE: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v310/cl_jay/converttoprofile.jpg

IMAGE: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v310/cl_jay/saveoptions.jpg

Hope you guys can help. Thanks.



  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
sponsored links (only for non-logged)

324,125 views & 3 likes for this thread, 88 members have posted to it and it is followed by 5 members.
Color problems? [work in progress?]
FORUMS Post Processing, Marketing & Presenting Photos RAW, Post Processing & Printing 
AAA
x 1600
y 1600

Jump to forum...   •  Rules   •  Forums   •  New posts   •  RTAT   •  'Best of'   •  Gallery   •  Gear   •  Reviews   •  Member list   •  Polls   •  Image rules   •  Search   •  Password reset   •  Home

Not a member yet?
Register to forums
Registered members may log in to forums and access all the features: full search, image upload, follow forums, own gear list and ratings, likes, more forums, private messaging, thread follow, notifications, own gallery, all settings, view hosted photos, own reviews, see more and do more... and all is free. Don't be a stranger - register now and start posting!


COOKIES DISCLAIMER: This website uses cookies to improve your user experience. By using this site, you agree to our use of cookies and to our privacy policy.
Privacy policy and cookie usage info.


POWERED BY AMASS forum software 2.58forum software
version 2.58 /
code and design
by Pekka Saarinen ©
for photography-on-the.net

Latest registered member is lauramears
431 guests, 121 members online
Simultaneous users record so far is 15,144, that happened on Nov 22, 2018

Photography-on-the.net Digital Photography Forums is the website for photographers and all who love great photos, camera and post processing techniques, gear talk, discussion and sharing. Professionals, hobbyists, newbies and those who don't even own a camera -- all are welcome regardless of skill, favourite brand, gear, gender or age. Registering and usage is free.