Approve the Cookies
This website uses cookies to improve your user experience. By using this site, you agree to our use of cookies and our Privacy Policy.
OK
Forums  •   • New posts  •   • RTAT  •   • 'Best of'  •   • Gallery  •   • Gear
Guest
Forums  •   • New posts  •   • RTAT  •   • 'Best of'  •   • Gallery  •   • Gear
Register to forums    Log in

 
FORUMS Post Processing, Marketing & Presenting Photos The Business of Photography 
Thread started 31 Mar 2007 (Saturday) 01:24
Search threadPrev/next
sponsored links (only for non-logged)

Direct Mail - Copyright Infringement

 
Metolius81
Member
32 posts
Joined Sep 2006
     
Mar 31, 2007 01:24 |  #1

Last fall I sold a license to a local real estate company for a photo that I had taken from their property. Originally, they wanted to use it as their main photo piece for their new adverstising campaign, but after talking costs with them they decided to only purchase a license for their website use only. As a side note, the reason why they decided not to purchase a multi-use license is because I am currently a grad student and they felt that since I am not a "professional photographer" that I "didn't deserve more than a couple hundred dollars to do whatever the hell they wanted with it," as they stated. Since I rejected their statement and refused to be low-balled, we only agreed on a web use only license.

It took them three months to finally pay, but within a week after I recieved payment a friend of mine brought me a direct mail ad that had my image on the entire front side... and with no copyright notification on it. Since this is blatant copyright infringment, especially since I have documented proof through the license stating no printed revisions, additional usage, reproduction, etc and I have emails of communication with them that they were fully aware of this, I am going to send a letter of copyright infringement notification and an invoice before firing away with an attorney's letter (and yes I have been advised by an ip attorney about this already).

My QUESTION... is there any way to find out how many direct mail ads were printed? There's no mark on the ad for who actually printed the ad for them. Can the Post Office track how many were mailed? I am asking because I want to begin with a number that is close to fair market value (before multiplying it, of course) so that I have a good basis to stand on when they confront the invoice. I am also wanting to try and find this out without just calling the real estate company since they don't know that I am aware of the ad yet and would rather send a more professional letter first then get into it over the phone when trying to find out.

Any help is much appreciated!!

Tyler



HOSTED PHOTO
please log in to view hosted photos in full size.




  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Sonic ­ Infidel
Senior Member
Avatar
560 posts
Gallery: 4 photos
Likes: 138
Joined Feb 2007
Location: Phoenix, AZ
     
Mar 31, 2007 07:16 |  #2

First things first, my friend. Talk to a lawyer!

You should not talk to the company AT ALL until you've consulted a legal professional. If you accidentally say the wrong thing on the phone, your case could be shot or your damages limited.

Now onto your question: It's unlikely that the postal service will have any available estimate of the ad numbers, but it wouldn't hurt to ask. Most likely, you'll have to get your lawyer to get the numbers from the printer once you've forced the real estate company to confess their transgressions.

Honestly, though....the issue here has absolutely nothing to do with the number of cards printed. The issue is that they printed them at all. The number will simply be useful to determine how much you are able to recoup from them.

Good luck in your endeavors, and please please please talk to a lawyer.

BTW, great photo!


--------------
Make more memories.

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Croasdail
making stuff up
Avatar
8,134 posts
Gallery: 19 photos
Likes: 899
Joined Apr 2005
Location: North Carolina and Toronto
     
Mar 31, 2007 07:56 |  #3

Tyler... I usually avoid the legal route at all cost as it is usually a business limiting action. But in this case, I would have the law office drop a cease and desist letter to the firm. It will cost you a couple of hours billable to them unfortunately, but you have tried the let's be friends route already. I am sure these guys will want to settle rather then litigate this matter, but they obviously are not taking you seriously. They need to know you are willing to go to the next step. Once they get the message, be willing to ratchet it back down really fast and work out a mutually financial agreement that make you both happy. They just need a shot over the bow. Again, not my normal advice, but in this case, I think needed.




  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
tcphoto1
Goldmember
Avatar
1,744 posts
Gallery: 47 photos
Likes: 1968
Joined Sep 2005
Location: Nashville, Tennessee
     
Mar 31, 2007 09:50 |  #4

It should be very easy to find an IP Attorney in this case. They will probably offer to take it on for a percentage of the settlement. I would assemble the emails, paperwork and the mailer so you are ready to go when you've signed the Letter of Agreement from the Attorney. By the way, register the images asap and the settlement can be much higher


www.tonyclarkphoto.com (external link)
www.tcphoto.org (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
tomd
Cream of the Crop
Avatar
13,282 posts
Likes: 31
Joined Jan 2007
Location: I live next to my neighbor
     
Mar 31, 2007 10:00 |  #5

Was the image submitted to the copyright office?
Not 100% necessary here, but it all helps.
Tom


.
=======>>> play W.A.I.N. :D

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Metolius81
THREAD ­ STARTER
Member
32 posts
Joined Sep 2006
     
Mar 31, 2007 13:05 as a reply to  @ tomd's post |  #6

Thanks for all of your help so far! Here's the other unfortunate part of the situation... because I was new to all of this when I started this process last fall, I took the advice of my professor at the time and didn't bother registering it. I know this sounds stupid, but I didn't know any better at the time (live and learn). But when I found out about the direct mail ad, it was already past the 90-day period. So I still went ahead and sent it in to the registration office a couple of weeks ago anyways. I did already talk to an attorney... since it wasn't registered in time, and you all know what limitations that means, I was told to just try the "easy" route first and send them an invoice with an explanation about copyright infringement before paying a lawyer. If they don't respond, then he said he would wright a letter for a couple hundred bucks. Here's the thing... I'm a student that would like to begin doing this as a business soon, but the reality is that I am not in the business now! I want to push this issue only because it was wrong what they did, but I don't have the finances to cover attorney fees and court costs. If I was losing part of my main income, that would be a different story.

I thought that finding out how many were printed ahead of time would help with the initial invoice.

Thanks again.




  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
sfaust
Goldmember
Avatar
2,306 posts
Likes: 10
Joined Nov 2006
     
Mar 31, 2007 13:44 |  #7

You are doing the right thing in this case by trying to avoid the legal route if possible, but keeping that as a backup. Since the images aren't registered, the best you can hope for would be actual damages. No legal fees covered, no punitive damages. If they printed say 1,000 direct mail pieces for a local campaign, the licensed fee would be in the neighborhood of $300-$600. So thats what you would be fighting over in court. $1000 in legal fees isn't worth it.

So if you can work this out with the company and avoid the legal fees, you will be ahead of the game. If not, I'd still go the legal route and add legal fees to your demands from the agency in hopes they will decide to settle before things get too expensive for both of you.

Let them know the images are registered, chances are they won't figure out you missed the deadline, and will be intimidated with the fact they could face up to $150,000 in punitive damages, paying all the legal fees (yours and theirs), and then the actual damages.

The screwed up, and they know it. Let them go consult an attorney and start paying $250 plus per hour. I personally would also go ahead and have an attorney send a cease and desist order, and require them to disclose ALL uses of the images, who printed them, how many were made, and so on.

Somehow, getting a legal letter in them mail makes people stop and think about the situation they are in. Its real easy to try to bully a student, much harder when they go lawyer to lawyer at $250 per hour.


Stephen

Mix of digital still gear, Medium format to M4/3.
Canon EOS Cinema for video.
Commercial Photography (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
ssim
POTN Landscape & Cityscape Photographer 2005
Avatar
10,884 posts
Likes: 6
Joined Apr 2003
Location: southern Alberta, Canada
     
Mar 31, 2007 14:33 as a reply to  @ sfaust's post |  #8

Many companies will try and do this whether you are a student or not. The one question I have is about your original contract. Is it iron clad and does it specify only web use or use by the company.

I wish you luck and I too am happy that you are avoiding the legal route. The problem in dealing with larger companies is they have more staying power when it comes to dealing with lawyers. They can keep you spending money on legal fees even though they may know they were in the wrong.


My life is like one big RAW file....way too much post processing needed.
Sheldon Simpson | My Gallery (external link) | My Gear updated: 20JUL12

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Croasdail
making stuff up
Avatar
8,134 posts
Gallery: 19 photos
Likes: 899
Joined Apr 2005
Location: North Carolina and Toronto
     
Mar 31, 2007 15:44 |  #9

Since the images aren't registered, the best you can hope for would be actual damages. No legal fees covered, no punitive damages.

Not necessarily true here since the user knew who the owner of the image was as acknowledged by the first contract. There is no way they can claim they didn't know who the image belong to. They can get out of punitive damages if they can show reasonable efforts were made to find the rightful owner, but that doesn't come close to applying here. They are additionally likely in breach of the first contract, another nice piece of the pie.

But yes, I agree, my general mantre is avoid the lawyer line. But here I think a letter is worth while.




  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Metolius81
THREAD ­ STARTER
Member
32 posts
Joined Sep 2006
     
Mar 31, 2007 16:18 |  #10

ssim wrote in post #2961587 (external link)
Many companies will try and do this whether you are a student or not. The one question I have is about your original contract. Is it iron clad and does it specify only web use or use by the company.

Here's an excerpt from the original contract:
The following license is granted to (omitted), upon full payment of invoice: Non-Exclusive usage by (omitted) to use the photograph described on this document, with an image not to exceed 1280 x 450 pixels, for 100 Park Avenue website, www.onehundredparkave.​com (external link), for an unlimited duration from time of payment. No printed revisions are granted with this license. Any additional usage, including said revisions must be negotiated with the copyright owner, Tyler Jones. Proper copyright notification is required in or directly adjacent to each use of the image “© 2006 Tyler Jones.” Third party use or reproduction not permitted without written authorization from the copyright owner, Tyler Jones. All images are © 2006 Tyler Jones and registered with the United States Copyright Office. All rights reserved.

So, they broke it within a few areas. 1) larger than allowed size 2) used the web-use version before time of payment 3) a printed revision / additional usage 4) no proper copyright notification on the ad.

I guess it sounds like there is no way of finding out how many ads were printed without going through a lawyer first. My thought was to send the invoice for a price that will generously cover 25K+ prints, even if they did only make 5k prints or whatever. Do you all suggest a 3x or 5x multiplier to cover myself in case I do need to pay some lawyer's billable hours??




  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
tcphoto1
Goldmember
Avatar
1,744 posts
Gallery: 47 photos
Likes: 1968
Joined Sep 2005
Location: Nashville, Tennessee
     
Mar 31, 2007 16:41 |  #11

There is no way that I would use the 3x or 5x multiplier. You have all the power and I am curious why you wouldn't use an Attorney. If that is the contract that they received and paid then I see no reason why they won't settle before it reaches a Court. As I suggested before, register the image and let your Attorney deal with them. After that point, patience is key since you have most, if not all the cards. Who cares how many they printed since your paperwork appears to be in order. Why would you let it go and settle for less when they violated the contract?


www.tonyclarkphoto.com (external link)
www.tcphoto.org (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Metolius81
THREAD ­ STARTER
Member
32 posts
Joined Sep 2006
     
Mar 31, 2007 16:49 |  #12

tcphoto1 wrote in post #2962112 (external link)
There is no way that I would use the 3x or 5x multiplier. You have all the power and I am curious why you wouldn't use an Attorney. If that is the contract that they received and paid then I see no reason why they won't settle before it reaches a Court. As I suggested before, register the image and let your Attorney deal with them. After that point, patience is key since you have most, if not all the cards. Who cares how many they printed since your paperwork appears to be in order. Why would you let it go and settle for less when they violated the contract?

I actually do have it registered now, but I didn't do it within the 90-days (see my post above). The reason I am not going to a lawyer first thing is because I am a grad student and can't really afford to just begin giving money to one right now. I will if I have to, but for right now I would like to try and get as much as I can without stepping into the legal system. If they ignore my invoice and letter, then yes, I do have all the cards as you say and will go that direction.

Why wouldn't you use a multiplier?




  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
tcphoto1
Goldmember
Avatar
1,744 posts
Gallery: 47 photos
Likes: 1968
Joined Sep 2005
Location: Nashville, Tennessee
     
Mar 31, 2007 17:54 |  #13

An IP Attorney will not ask you for a cent, they will take the case on for a percentage of the settlement. You are about to make a big mistake in my opinion. Use this multiplier theory and you will lose money. Stop asking for Professional Photographers advice, you seem to be rejecting it. Talk to an Attorney and then let us know what happens.


www.tonyclarkphoto.com (external link)
www.tcphoto.org (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
PhotosGuy
Cream of the Crop, R.I.P.
Avatar
75,941 posts
Gallery: 8 photos
Likes: 2611
Joined Feb 2004
Location: Middle of Michigan
     
Apr 01, 2007 07:25 |  #14

But when I found out about the direct mail ad, it was already past the 90-day period. So I still went ahead and sent it in to the registration office a couple of weeks ago anyways.

Check to see if there's a clause about registering within a certain date after you discover the violation. I think I read that somewhere.

If they don't respond, then he said he would wright a letter for a couple hundred bucks.

Add those costs to your new invoice.

I thought that finding out how many were printed ahead of time would help with the initial invoice.
&
Use this multiplier theory and you will lose money.

What's the population of the city? I'd assume that they sent one to everyone & bill accordingly. That should get their attention? Let them prove otherwise, & remember, you'll also be suing for damages, no?

Keep us up to date.


FrankC - 20D, RAW, Manual everything...
Classic Carz, Racing, Air Show, Flowers.
Find the light... A few Car Lighting Tips, and MOVE YOUR FEET!
Have you thought about making your own book? // Need an exposure crutch?
New Image Size Limits: Image must not exceed 1600 pixels on any side.

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
sfaust
Goldmember
Avatar
2,306 posts
Likes: 10
Joined Nov 2006
     
Apr 01, 2007 12:35 |  #15

Croasdail wrote in post #2961910 (external link)
Not necessarily true here since the user knew who the owner of the image was as acknowledged by the first contract. There is no way they can claim they didn't know who the image belong to. They can get out of punitive damages if they can show reasonable efforts were made to find the rightful owner, but that doesn't come close to applying here.


But the issue isn't whether they can prove it was willful or uintentional infringement, that they knew the original copyright holder or not, it comes down to what the law allows to be recovered for registered vs non-registered images.

If the images are not registered, the photographer (in this case) would generally be sueing for actual damages only. I do not believe would be able to sue for punitive damages, or his legal fees, under the copyright law as it is written, and how it was explained to me various times by people far more knowledgable than I in copyright law. This typically amounts to the amount of money the photographer would have collected if he licensed the image in the first place.

This is like being caught shoplifting, and the only punishment that can be levied is that you have to pay for the items you tired to steal. Sweet deal for the infringer, and why many companies, magazines, and agencies decide to take the risk. They know most photogrphers don't register their images, and if they get cught it's no big deal.

If the images are properly registered, my understanding is that not only can he sue for actual damages, but he can sue for all his legal costs to be covered by the infringer, and the court is allowed to levy up to $150K per infringement (not per image) in punitive damages.

Being registered is a huge legal hammer that can be used to help settle an action outside of court. The infringer knowing that if they loose, they would be responsible for all the legal costs of the action, as well as the punitive damages usually makes most people eager to settle up. Especially if they know they are in the wrong. And typicaly, a settlement far larger than the damages alone is the result, since the risk is so much higher that they could pay hundreds of thousands of dollars if it goes to trial.

tcphoto1 wrote in post #2962379 (external link)
An IP Attorney will not ask you for a cent, they will take the case on for a percentage of the settlement. You are about to make a big mistake in my opinion. Use this multiplier theory and you will lose money. Stop asking for Professional Photographers advice, you seem to be rejecting it. Talk to an Attorney and then let us know what happens.

Some will, some won't. It all depends on the monetary size of the case, whether the attorney feels he will recoup his fees, that they can settle or win the case, and so on. The bigger the fish, the larger the prize, the higher the likelyhood of winning, the more excited the attorney will be to take it on a percentage. And the reverse is true. I really doubt he will find a lawyer willing to take on this case for a percentage, seeing how its unregistered and the infringement is less than a thousand dollars. If it was registered, the attorney would see damages, plus up to $150K punitive, plus his fees.

Here are some good pointers to copyright law from ASMP, EP, and APA. Lots of interesting reading for anyone interested in copyright law.

http://www.law.cornell​.edu/wex/index.php/Cop​yright (external link)
http://www.editorialph​oto.com/copyright/prim​er.asp (external link)
http://fairuse.stanfor​d.edu …aterials/cases/​index.html (external link)
http://fairuse.stanfor​d.edu/ (external link)
http://www.utsystem.ed​u …Property/cprtin​dx.htm#top (external link)
http://www.templetons.​com/brad/copymyths.htm​l (external link)
http://www.copyrightco​ntracts.com/copyright1​01.htm (external link)


Stephen

Mix of digital still gear, Medium format to M4/3.
Canon EOS Cinema for video.
Commercial Photography (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
sponsored links (only for non-logged)

4,247 views & 0 likes for this thread, 17 members have posted to it.
Direct Mail - Copyright Infringement
FORUMS Post Processing, Marketing & Presenting Photos The Business of Photography 
AAA
x 1600
y 1600

Jump to forum...   •  Rules   •  Forums   •  New posts   •  RTAT   •  'Best of'   •  Gallery   •  Gear   •  Reviews   •  Member list   •  Polls   •  Image rules   •  Search   •  Password reset   •  Home

Not a member yet?
Register to forums
Registered members may log in to forums and access all the features: full search, image upload, follow forums, own gear list and ratings, likes, more forums, private messaging, thread follow, notifications, own gallery, all settings, view hosted photos, own reviews, see more and do more... and all is free. Don't be a stranger - register now and start posting!


COOKIES DISCLAIMER: This website uses cookies to improve your user experience. By using this site, you agree to our use of cookies and to our privacy policy.
Privacy policy and cookie usage info.


POWERED BY AMASS forum software 2.58forum software
version 2.58 /
code and design
by Pekka Saarinen ©
for photography-on-the.net

Latest registered member is ANebinger
1099 guests, 174 members online
Simultaneous users record so far is 15,144, that happened on Nov 22, 2018

Photography-on-the.net Digital Photography Forums is the website for photographers and all who love great photos, camera and post processing techniques, gear talk, discussion and sharing. Professionals, hobbyists, newbies and those who don't even own a camera -- all are welcome regardless of skill, favourite brand, gear, gender or age. Registering and usage is free.