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Thread started 02 May 2007 (Wednesday) 15:01
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Hyperfocal distance setting vs. Infinity mark

 
C.Steele
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May 02, 2007 15:01 |  #1

I'm not even sure I'm asking this question right, but I'm trying to understand how to get max sharpness/dof in my landscape shots. I found a hyperfocal chart and tried the settings it suggested but I seem to get better results if I just put the distance setting on the infinity mark.

The chart suggested for a 24mm lens, on F32, the distance setting would be 2.3ft. I tried that and I can't say it was worse, but it was no better than the infinity mark. I have read several discussions where people say hyperfocal distance setting is the ONLY way to go. I'm just really confused on how this exactly works and I guess how the infinity setting works too.

Can someone help me understand this?

Chris


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Curtis ­ N
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May 02, 2007 15:19 |  #2

I'm getting slightly different numbers and I don't know what camera format you're using, but I'll try to explain the concept.

With a 24mm lens on a 1.6x camera at f/32, the hyperfocal distance (using a "standard" CoC value) is 3.23 feet. This means that if you focus at 3.23 feet, your DOF will be from half that distance (1.62 feet) to infinity. If you focus at infinity, your DOF will be from 3.23 feet to infinity.

So if there is something in your field of view only 1.62 feet away that you want to keep in focus, then focusing at 3.23 feet is the thing to do. If there is nothing in your field of view that close, then stopping down to f/32 is foolish.

1.6x cameras are diffraction limited around f/11, full frame cameras around f/16. That means that if you stop down past these apertures you will start to loose sharpness due to diffraction.

A better approach would be to estimate the distance of the nearest thing you want to keep in focus, then select the aperture that gives you a hyperfocal distance of twice that.


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May 02, 2007 15:35 as a reply to  @ Curtis N's post |  #3

1.6x cameras are diffraction limited around f/11, full frame cameras around f/16. That means that if you stop down past these apertures you will start to loose sharpness due to diffraction.

Hei. Sorry to jump in here a little off-topic. Does that mean it's not useful to use for example f22 or so (on the 20d for example), because the picture will be unsharp?


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Curtis ­ N
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May 02, 2007 15:50 |  #4

snevs wrote in post #3141230 (external link)
Hei. Sorry to jump in here a little off-topic. Does that mean it's not useful to use for example f22 or so (on the 20d for example), because the picture will be unsharp?

It means don't stop down past f/11 unless you have a reason to.

Using the 24mm lens on a 1.6x camera from the example above, hyperfocal distance at f/11 is just over 9 feet. If there's nothing in the image closer than half that distance, then you will gain nothing by stopping down past f/11, and you will loose sharpness due to diffraction.

On the other hand, for macro shooting at close distances, smaller apertures will often be required to get the entire subject in focus. You still sacrifice some sharpness from diffraction but you gain DOF by stopping down.


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C.Steele
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May 02, 2007 15:50 as a reply to  @ snevs's post |  #5

So really using the hyperfocal method doesn't yield anymore dof on the far end, it's all about getting more dof on the near end. If the near limit was 4ft by focusing on the subject then you could get it to 2ft by using the hyperfocal setting. But both ways the far end would still be infinity. Correct?

I think I'm starting to grasp this...maybe:o

Chris


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Curtis ­ N
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May 02, 2007 16:36 |  #6

NWShooter wrote in post #3141312 (external link)
So really using the hyperfocal method doesn't yield anymore dof on the far end, it's all about getting more dof on the near end.

I think you're grasping it. Focusing at hyperfocal will maximize your total DOF at that aperture. The key is to pick the aperture that gives you the DOF you need without going overboard and suffering the effects of diffraction.


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C.Steele
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May 02, 2007 16:39 as a reply to  @ Curtis N's post |  #7

Got it. Makes total sense now.

Hey thanks Curtis, I really appreciate you taking the time to explain it. You have been a great help.

Take care,
Chris


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gasrocks
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May 02, 2007 16:39 |  #8

If you do focus at infinity, you are tossing out 1/2 of your available DOF. Focusing somewhere just inside infinity will get you infinity and more up close in focus.


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May 02, 2007 16:54 |  #9

I learn something new everyday....that 1/2 distance calculation is new to me...I'll go get my charts out and check again with a fresh set of eyes...thanks Chris!

To add to the knowledge base....check out your lens / camera combo here:
http://www.dofmaster.c​om/doftable.html (external link)


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René ­ Damkot
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May 02, 2007 17:09 |  #10

gasrocks wrote in post #3141572 (external link)
If you do focus at infinity, you are tossing out 1/2 of your available DOF. Focusing somewhere just inside infinity will get you infinity and more up close in focus.

Sorry, I don't agree: I prefer to focus on infinity.
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Curtis ­ N
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May 02, 2007 17:27 |  #11

gasrocks wrote in post #3141572 (external link)
If you do focus at infinity, you are tossing out 1/2 of your available DOF. Focusing somewhere just inside infinity will get you infinity and more up close in focus.

While it's impossible to compute half the distance to infinity, that statement is incorrect for practical purposes. Take another look at the example I posted above:

Curtis N wrote in post #3141149 (external link)
With a 24mm lens on a 1.6x camera at f/32, the hyperfocal distance (using a "standard" CoC value) is 3.23 feet. This means that if you focus at 3.23 feet, your DOF will be from half that distance (1.62 feet) to infinity. If you focus at infinity, your DOF will be from 3.23 feet to infinity.

All you loose by focusing at infinity is half the distance in front of HFD.

If the nearest object in your composition is beyond HFD, then focusing at infinity works as well as any other method.


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zilch0md
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May 07, 2007 00:46 |  #12

Hi René,

René Damkot wrote in post #3141718 (external link)
Sorry, I don't agree: I prefer to focus on infinity.
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Harold M.Merklinger’s article, "Depth of Field Revisited," as seen at the link you provided, is an overview of a focusing method Merklinger details in his out-of-print book, "The INs and OUTs of Focus". He is generally regarded to be the originator of the idea that focusing at Infinity can offer some benefits over focusing at the hyperfocal distance when the subject space includes objects at Infinity in addition to objects that are closer than Infinity.

A free PDF edition of Merklinger's book can be downloaded here: "The INs and OUTs of Focus" (external link).

Many people who read this book somehow come away with the conviction that focusing at Infinity yields a superior (or at least an equivalent) image quality to that had when focusing at the hyperfocal distance. This is not the case. You have to read the entire book to understand that Merklinger is only pitching his "focus at Infinity" method as a convenient way to avoid the effort required to focus at the hyperfocal distance, BUT Merklinger makes it clear that this convenience is had at the expense of image quality (in foreground sharpness), or at the expense of shutter speed, or both.

You can find evidence that despite his having invented this idea of just focusing at Infinity, Merklinger understands that there is useful DoF beyond the plane of sharpest focus (when you focus at Infinity, you are not making use of the very precious DoF available beyond where you've focused) -AND- he understands that CoC diameters can be made small enough to produce sharp images while hyperfocusing (you don't have to treat CoC diameters as a constant and be disatisfied with the results had when hyperfocusing). His book does not at all dismiss the fact that hyperfocusing really can produce sharp images. Best of all, his book proves that HE KNOWS his focus at Infinity technique produces compromised images. Stay with me...

Consider his Rule of Thumb #6 (page 37): "The zone of acceptable delineation of the subject falls equally in front of and behind the point of exact focus (not 1/3, 2/3!)."

Which prompts me to ask this question: Why would you want to throw away the "acceptable delineation of the subject" that's available BEYOND the plane of focus when focusing at Infinity? Hold that thought as we continue...

Or his Rule of Thumb #20 (page 71): "The usual depth-of-field scale is calculated for a 1/30 mm circle-of-confusion. Typical 35 mm films and lenses are capable of delivering a 1/150 mm standard. To convert an existing depth-of-field scale to a new (higher, more demanding) standard, all we have to do is multiply the numbers on the depth-of-field scale by the improvement factor we desire. To go for that five-fold possible improvement, multiply all the numbers by 5: Instead of f/2, read f/10. Alternatively, divide the f-number you are actually using by 5 and look for that spot on the existing depth-of-field scale: if you are using f/11, look for the f/2.2 depth-of-field mark. And, if you wish, you can use different standards for the far limit of depth-of-field and for the near limit."

That last sentence from his Rule of Thumb #20 reveals that Merklinger acknowledges that DoF calculations can be tailored to be as aggressive as we need them - by choosing a Circle of Confusion diameter that smartly accommodates the anticipated enlargement factor and viewing distance.

But you can also find statements like this:

From page 21: "In general, I have found the results obtained using the time-honored methods usually yield backgrounds which are on the fuzzy side."

Here's where he begins to get silly in an effort to sell his novel focusing method. I have to ask the question: Is he pretending there's only one CoC diameter we can use for hyperfocusing? If not, there's no excuse for fuzzy backgrounds when using "time-honored methods!" (See his Rule of Thumb #20!)

Rule of Thumb #4 (page 36): "If we want anything at infinity to be critically sharp, focus at Infinity."

That doesn't jive with Rule of Thumb #6! Why would you focus at Infinity if "The zone of ACCEPTABLE delineation of the subject falls equally in front of and behind the point of exact focus?" If you find the DoF in the foreground produces acceptably small CoC's (or disks of confusion, as Merklinger calls them), why wouldn't these same sized CoC's be acceptable beyond the plane of exact focus - in the background?

And his Rule of Thumb #23 (page 72): "A gentle repeat reminder: when you focus at the hyperfocal distance, you are guaranteeing that subjects in the distance will be resolved no better than your specified minimum standard. In order to improve upon this, you must focus beyond the hyperfocal distance."

Here he suggests the possibility that we can use a standard of our own choosing - "your specified minimum standard" (a la Rule #20) - but when he suggests that we focus beyond the hyperfocal distance to improve the sharpness of distant subjects, he NEGLECTS to mention a critical point: If our chosen standard were aggressive enough to begin with (if we had smaller CoC's), we wouldn't feel moved to sacrifice foreground sharpness just to obtain acceptable background sharpness!

And in his Summary, Chapter 11 (page 73): "The traditional depth-of-field philosophy usually ends with the advice: to maximize depth-of-field, choose a moderately small lens opening, set the focus to the hyperfocal distance, and shoot. My parting advice would be a little different. For typical normal and wide-angle lenses, especially lenses having focal lengths less than about 50 mm no matter what the camera format, set the lens opening to somewhere in the 2 mm to 5 mm range, set the focus at infinity, and shoot. For lens openings larger than 5 mm, and for longer lenses that tends to mean all normal working f-stops, focus on what is critically important."

Focusing at infinity can not be done without forfeiting the DoF that resides beyond the plane of focus (Merklinger's Rule # 6!), thus the aperture you must chose to adequately resolve foreground subjects when focusing at Infinity will be smaller than that which could be used if hyperfocusing instead! Merklinger chooses not to stop down that far and thus suffers UNSHARP foregrounds. Where does he say that? Keep reading...

Under a photograph of a church with flowers very near in the foreground (page 60), he writes: "Taken with a 28 mm lens at f/11, infinity focus provided all the depth-of-field necessary."

Without question, if he's content with the CoC diameters in the foreground subjects, he could have hyperfocused and been just as content with his infinity subjects at something like f/8 (where the DoF that resides beyond the plane of focus could have been pressed into service instead of wasted!)

And on page 68: "Since working out these details, I find I do a lot of photography with the lens simply focused at infinity."

How convenient! But don't miss this: Merklinger admits that the convenience comes at a price...

From page 22: "Objects photographed up close can still be recognized even if they are a little fuzzy. Objects in the distance may need to be very sharply imaged if they are to be recognized at all."

From page 48, under the infamous cannon and village picture: "The cannon, the grass, the gravel, and the trees are clearly a bit fuzzy, but we have no difficulty in recognizing them." You've got to laugh at that: "clearly a bit fuzzy".

From page 66: "Experimenting, I learned that with the lens focused at infinity, things up close still seemed to be adequately sharp."

So Merklinger admits that his infinity focus method produces foregrounds that are "a bit fuzzy", "a little fuzzy" or "seemed to be adequately sharp."

Merklinger's method is clearly a compromise that is acceptable only if you are willing to suffer "fuzzy" foregrounds in favor of sharp Infinity subjects and a very convenient way to set focus and select aperture. The fact remains that everything in the shot can be made at least as sharp as his Nears at a wider aperture (faster shutter speed) than he's using - by focusing more closely than at Infinity. And, despite his negative comments about hyperfocal focusing, his own Rules #6 and #20 reveal that he knows one can achieve acceptably sharp Nears AND Fars by hyperfocusing for a smaller CoC diameter.

Merklinger's method boils down to this: If you're willing to take a hit in foreground sharpness and waste the DoF that lies beyond the plane of focus, you can put convenience ahead of quality by focusing at Infinity and selecting an aperture that's just small enough to make foreground subjects only "recognizable". If you want the convenience of focusing at Infinity AND the foreground sharpness had when hyperfocal focusing, you'll have to stop down further than you would with hyperfocal focusing (because you're throwing away all the DoF that lies beyond the plane of sharpest focus), suffer the slower shutter speed that comes with using the smaller aperture, and increase your risk of inducing visible degradation due to diffraction across the entire image.

No thanks! I'll stick with using depth of field calculations that have been customised with a smartly chosen CoC diameter - per the formula documented in Wikipedia's article on Circle of Confusion (external link).

The half a minute required to use a depth of field calculator will not only tell me at what distance to focus, but will also give me the widest aperture (and therefore, the fastest shutter speed) capable of delivering the CoC diameters necessary to support my desired print resolution for an anticipated enlargement factor and viewing distance.

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May 07, 2007 03:30 |  #13

Curtis N wrote in post #3141149 (external link)
1.6x cameras are diffraction limited around f/11, full frame cameras around f/16. That means that if you stop down past these apertures you will start to loose sharpness due to diffraction.


nothing to do with the sensor size, rather pixel pitch. 5d and 1dmkII should have roughtly the same density and the same min aperature before diffraction effects come into play. if you take rayleigh's criterion as the basis, the diaphragm at 12mm from the mount, and a 24mm lens@f11, the size of the first airy disk is 16.6micrometers, or almost more than three times the size of a pixel in an xti or twice that of a 5d... of course, the numbers could be wrong, but that would be dependant on the constant in the criterion rather than a wrong method.. basically, if you want to use a smaller aperature, go with less MP


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René ­ Damkot
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May 07, 2007 06:05 |  #14

zilch0md wrote in post #3163672 (external link)
Merklinger's method is clearly a compromise that is acceptable only if you are willing to suffer "fuzzy" foregrounds in favor of sharp Infinity subjects

True. And I agree that the best method would be, as you say, to use "depth of field calculations that have been customised with a smartly chosen CoC diameter".

I have found however that the sharpness of small details in the BG are more important to me then those in the foregound.
I've seen small detail get totally lost, when using a 17-40L on a 1DsMk2, (heavy tripod, MLU, cable release, somewhere around f/11) by turning the focus ring from, say, 7 to 6 meters... (whatever the exact distances: Somewhere between the 4m mark and infinity, and a *very* small turn).
Sharpness in the forground wasn't affected in a meaningfull way.


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zilch0md
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May 07, 2007 08:13 |  #15

René

René Damkot wrote in post #3164370 (external link)
True. And I agree that the best method would be, as you say, to use "depth of field calculations that have been customised with a smartly chosen CoC diameter".

Wow. In my experience, that's a rare testimony from an advocate of Merklinger's focus-at-infinity method. I have to conclude that since you consciously choose not to use "the best method" (hyperfocal focusing), your preference for the Merklinger method is one of convenience. At least you are not making that choice in ignorance. An extreme majority of Merklinger's protagonists are completely unaware that they must compromise either foreground sharpness or shutter speed to enjoy the convenience of focusing at Infinity. (In other words, they have not thoroughly read and understood what Merklinger wrote in his book, "The INs and OUTs of Focus")

René Damkot wrote:
I have found however that the sharpness of small details in the BG are more important to me then those in the foregound. I've seen small detail get totally lost, when using a 17-40L on a 1DsMk2, (heavy tripod, MLU, cable release, somewhere around f/11) by turning the focus ring from, say, 7 to 6 meters... (whatever the exact distances: Somewhere between the 4m mark and infinity, and a *very* small turn). Sharpness in the forground wasn't affected in a meaningfull way.


Translation: As long as you can enjoy the convenience of focusing at Infinity, you are willing to suffer fuzzy foregrounds because you are not willing to forego convenience to secure sharpness in both the foreground and the background by hyperfocusing (which requires that you figure out where to focus and what minimum aperture you must use.) And in that preference for the convenience of focusing at Infinity, you are also not willing to stop down further than you would have to when hyperfocusing to secure foregrounds that appear as sharp as your backgrounds at your anticipated enlargement factor and viewing distance.

In short, you are content with fuzzy foregrounds, where sharpness "wasn't affected in a meaningfull way." Your words are very similar to the language Merklinger uses on page 48 of his book, The INs and OUTs of Focus: "The cannon, the grass, the gravel, and the trees are clearly a bit fuzzy, but we have no difficulty in recognizing them."

At least you are aware of what you're doing. I can respect the choice you are making far more readily than I can the choices made by people who argue for the Merklinger method without acknowledging that they are suffering a compromise. I can not argue your prerogative, but I've made the choice to use "the best method" because I'm not willing to compromise either my foreground sharpness or my shutter speed to avoid the effort required to employ depth of field calculations.

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