Question for Lightroom users: Do you crop originals or make virtual copies to crop?

Bollan wrote in post #3165764
So you mean that you duplicate your RAW file everytime just to work a RAW copy? That sounds totally insane and for no use at all.

Well, rather than making harsh statements like that I respond much better to explanations showing me why it might not be the best or most efficient way to work. I began this thread with some basic questions, clearly showing that I am trying to learn something that I don't understand.

Why is making a virtual copy any different from opening an image in Photoshop and duplicating your background layer before you begin? Of course I can always go back in history and create layer presets but having the original untouched image is useful to just option-click (Mac) and 'solo' that layer, option click again and is 'unsolos'.

History states and snapshots do not put the 2 images side by side in Lightroom, which I can do with the original and a virtual copy with processing.

So can you provide some constructive help instead of telling me that what I'm doing is insane and for no use at all?

Scottes wrote in post #3165953
If Lightroom "crops" without removing pixels, and will apply any edits to the "original" when the crop is removed, then crop away all you want. You will lose nothing, except an understanding of the word "crop." It's beginning to sound like LR does masking, not cropping.

But once you get into a destructive cropping program, like Photoshop, it's a whole different story.

Learning and understanding is not the same as complicating. Developing an understanding of the process and reasons is what makes for "a fast, effecient and simplyfied workflow."

In other words, get off your high horse. Just because you may understand doesn't mean that everyone else does. You make a number of assumptions in your discourse of disagreeing with people.

High horse??? Assumptions????

Just becaused i think a few of the comments were based on lack of knowledge of RAW files and Lightroom im on a "High horse" and make "assumptions"?? I was just trying to imput my view on some of the comments. If my comments have made you upset or anyone else......that wasnt my intention at all.

But i was suprised to find many comments incorrectly worrying about he destruction of the RAW files so i felt the urge to input my view. If that means that i disagree with some of the comments, so be it.

Scottes wrote in post #3165953
Read it again, slowly, and don't mix up my words nor take them out of context. And then explain to me why you find it useful, rather than just disagreeing with my opinion. And then read again the part about soft-proofing. I will be happy to explain it, if you don't understand why soft-proofing is absolutely and completely extremely superior to viewing a histogram.

I find the histogram invaluable as a guidance for correct exposure, specially in camera. Though i totally agree with on relying on ones eyes more than any other type of charts.

Scottes wrote in post #3165953
You seem to imply that your shooting of sports or action is so very different that what the rest of shoot.

It's not.

And if you really think what you said, then you should go back and re-read this thread.

Whos making assumptions ?

I cant recall i said my shooting is different than anyone elses. But i do firmly belive that cropping is used a lot more in sports/action photography than any other type of photography.

I do apologize if i used too harsh language in my comments

TMR Design wrote in post #3166092
Well, rather than making harsh statements like that I respond much better to explanations showing me why it might not be the best or most efficient way to work. I began this thread with some basic questions, clearly showing that I am trying to learn something that I don't understand.

Why is making a virtual copy any different from opening an image in Photoshop and duplicating your background layer before you begin? Of course I can always go back in history and create layer presets but having the original untouched image is useful to just option-click (Mac) and 'solo' that layer, option click again and is 'unsolos'.

History states and snapshots do not put the 2 images side by side in Lightroom, which I can do with the original and a virtual copy with processing.

So can you provide some constructive help instead of telling me that what I'm doing is insane and for no use at all?

Here we go........

First im truly sorry if i was harsh in my comments.....i really am.

Virtual copies is great if you want to see different crops, do different type of develop setting to a single image. But i do think its unnecessary to create a virtual copy of every single image just because you dont want to "touch" the original RAW.

The difference between LR and PS in that in LR everything you do is non destructive not even to jpegs.

In PS if you work with RAW files everything is non destructive too, but when you say you duplicate your layer i assume you talk about tiff or jpeg files which is a bit different than RAW. Then you are correct in duplicating the layers for non destructive editing.

If you are intrested to see before and after comparisons instead of doing virtual copies just use Compare (C) view instead.

If you manage a fairly large library in LR you will soon find out that creating virtual copies of all your images is extremely time consuming. Also it will clog up your Grid view considerably without stacking them all again loosing valueable time.

Bollan wrote in post #3165764
Honestly


Again LR is non destructive so your RAW files can ALWAYS be reverted back to the original state. Cropping do NOT destruct your RAW files. You are just telling LR what part of the image which will be included on the export.

Hmmmm read the post I shoot raw so that I DO NOT WORK ON THE originals no matter if I use LR or Bridge I still do not harm the RAW file so your comments are stupid in context to my post. I open the raw file convert to jpg tiff what ever then work on those files I will always then have the ORIGINAL RAW file to revert to when I mess up the jpg tiff.

Hmmm seems to have gone off topic perhaps I should say
1) open raw
2) save as jpg tiff what ever
3) do work on file
4) I then crop to my taste
5) print picture
6) Customer wont pay for print

Martin

Bollan wrote in post #3166454
Here we go........

First im truly sorry if i was harsh in my comments.....i really am.

Virtual copies is great if you want to see different crops, do different type of develop setting to a single image. But i do think its unnecessary to create a virtual copy of every single image just because you dont want to "touch" the original RAW.

The difference between LR and PS in that in LR everything you do is non destructive not even to jpegs.

In PS if you work with RAW files everything is non destructive too, but when you say you duplicate your layer i assume you talk about tiff or jpeg files which is a bit different than RAW. Then you are correct in duplicating the layers for non destructive editing.

If you are intrested to see before and after comparisons instead of doing virtual copies just use Compare (C) view instead.

If you manage a fairly large library in LR you will soon find out that creating virtual copies of all your images is extremely time consuming. Also it will clog up your Grid view considerably without stacking them all again loosing valueable time.

Thanks Bollan,

OK what you're saying makes sense but I'm just not understanding something here. I was not just making the virtual copy for the purpose of not touching the original. I understand the Compare function but didn't think that you could use it to look at the different history states or snapshots. I thought you had to have 2 images selected for the Select and Candidate shots. I know I can switch states but the thing I like about Compare is that it can be side by side, and it's easier to see slight differences or whatever you're looking for.
I also agree that making those virtual copies clogs the grid and creates large stacks but I don't see how to have all the different versions without the copies. I'm sure that I'm missing something simple. Are snapshots the answer? I want to be able to have all those different states, and crops, and the TIFF's brought back into LR from PS after editing and I want to be able to name or title them so I can clearly see what I've got and not have to wonder where things are or which version is which.

I'm slowly learning the in's and out's of Lightroom but this all started because in the midst of learning I got a client and had to actually use the program to work a project from start to finish. I never said that I had a good way or the correct way to work, but had A method that got me though with many unanswered questions about workflow and procedure. Lightroom is very powerful and grasping all of its power is a tall order.

Any additional help is very much appreciated.

If I understand correctly LR does not crop the photo, it only saves the instructions for cropping the photo. It is when you export the photo that LR applies the crop (and other modifications) before writing the file. Unless you overwrite the original file it will still be there along with a sidecar file containing all the changes you made in LR.

When you open up LR at a later date you see the photo with the changes you made the previous time. You can still back out of the changes or reset the photo to when you originally imported it. So it is easy to change the crop and export it again to a different file long after you did it the first time.

The difference means that I can crop a photo in LR, make exposure and color corrections, and then decide I don't like the crop and change it on the spot. If I did that in PS (without layers) I would have to undo all the exposure and color corrections before I changed the crop.

You have to have a different mindset on how you edit a photo in LR vs PS.

Scottes wrote in post #3165064
Wow - long diatribe that doesn't really address the issue... Let me try again:

Scottes, if you haven't already, you should write a book titled, "Image Processing For Boneheads" (Sadly I'm still a Photoshop Bonehead). You actually explain a lot in a few words.

TMR Design I'm sorry I highjacked your thread and I've confused the issue a bit because I don't use Lightroom.

Bollan, I don't necessarily agree with your opinions, but I was referring to processing in Photoshop CS2. Sorry for any confusion there. However, being an "open" forum, I totally agree with your right to express your opinions.

Finally...THANKS everyone...I learn so much more out of this place than anywhere else.

If we can get back to the original question, it is actually a very good one and one I am seeking to find a good solution to. I find myself increasingly using Lightroom for my whole PP workflow so this in very relevant to me.

I do quite a lot of studio work and find that customers will ask for a variety of print sizes at different aspect ratios. In Photoshop I have tended to do the base PP and then create crops of the customer picks at the different sizes and save these in different directories (i.e. Smith Raw, Smith 7x5, Smith 10x8). This means that at reprint time, I already have all the crop sizes and for lab prints they have what they want. I have also created some custom picture package layouts for some common customer requirements.

In Lightroom, the only solution I have found is to make multiple copies of the customer picks and make a series of crops to suit their requirements. For stuff I print myself this is ok though slightly confusing but for lab work I still end up exporting tiffs at the various sizes. Its OK but hard to retrace ones steps later on and it can get quite confusing. What is most frustrating for me is the inability to set up custom print pages in Lightroom (i.e with diffferent print sizes on the same sheet).

TMR Design wrote in post #3166534
Thanks Bollan,

OK what you're saying makes sense but I'm just not understanding something here. I was not just making the virtual copy for the purpose of not touching the original. I understand the Compare function but didn't think that you could use it to look at the different history states or snapshots. I thought you had to have 2 images selected for the Select and Candidate shots. I know I can switch states but the thing I like about Compare is that it can be side by side, and it's easier to see slight differences or whatever you're looking for.
I also agree that making those virtual copies clogs the grid and creates large stacks but I don't see how to have all the different versions without the copies. I'm sure that I'm missing something simple. Are snapshots the answer? I want to be able to have all those different states, and crops, and the TIFF's brought back into LR from PS after editing and I want to be able to name or title them so I can clearly see what I've got and not have to wonder where things are or which version is which.

I'm slowly learning the in's and out's of Lightroom but this all started because in the midst of learning I got a client and had to actually use the program to work a project from start to finish. I never said that I had a good way or the correct way to work, but had A method that got me though with many unanswered questions about workflow and procedure. Lightroom is very powerful and grasping all of its power is a tall order.

Any additional help is very much appreciated.

Doing all thoose different variations of the same image, is that something you do very often? Then maybe your only answer is virtual copies but if its only something you do once in a while the snapshots must be the best way to go.

The problem with snapshots is that you have to be in the develop module to be able to view them and you can only compare the latest state of your image with one of the snapshots.

I was thinking if you do so many different versions of a single image maybe your solution is creating subfolders for them. That way they are "out of the way" from your shoot folder and when you want to compare them side to side you just use the survey mode.

So your workflow would be like this:

Develop 1 ----> snapshot ----> export to folder X
Develop 2 ----> snapshot ----> export to folder X
Develop 3 ----> snapshot ----> export to folder X
Develop 4 ----> snapshot ----> export to folder X

Work the developed tiffs or jpegs in PS -----> rename ----> import the folder where you put all the different develops.

As you have all your different tiffs in that folder it feels a bit over the top to do have different copies of the actaul RAW as well. Its not a matter of space really as virtual copies hardly take any room but organisational.

Tandem wrote in post #3167718
If I understand correctly LR does not crop the photo, it only saves the instructions for cropping the photo. It is when you export the photo that LR applies the crop (and other modifications) before writing the file. Unless you overwrite the original file it will still be there along with a sidecar file containing all the changes you made in LR.

Correct

Tandem wrote in post #3167718
When you open up LR at a later date you see the photo with the changes you made the previous time. You can still back out of the changes or reset the photo to when you originally imported it. So it is easy to change the crop and export it again to a different file long after you did it the first time.

Again correct

Tandem wrote in post #3167718
The difference means that I can crop a photo in LR, make exposure and color corrections, and then decide I don't like the crop and change it on the spot. If I did that in PS (without layers) I would have to undo all the exposure and color corrections before I changed the crop.

You have to have a different mindset on how you edit a photo in LR vs PS.

Yes thats so true and thats why i feel LR is far superior than PS in your initial stage of the workflow. LR have completely changed my workflow.
Now i do as much as i possibly can in LR and leave only noise reduction and sharpening to PS.

Bollan wrote in post #3170345
Yes thats so true and thats why i feel LR is far superior than PS in your initial stage of the workflow. LR have completely changed my workflow.
Now i do as much as i possibly can in LR and leave only noise reduction and sharpening to PS.

Oh no! I've spent almost every waking minute of the last year learning Photoshop and now you're saying I should learn Lightroom (as well?). I think I'll be dead by the time I finally get the hang of all these processing programs

Meaty0 wrote in post #3170367
Oh no! I've spent almost every waking minute of the last year learning Photoshop and now you're saying I should learn Lightroom (as well?). I think I'll be dead by the time I finally get the hang of all these processing programs

I know i was exactly in the same boat. Bear in mind the time you have invested in Photoshop is never thrown away. There are still things that you cant do in LR but i must admit i tend to spend much less time in PS than i used to do.

I do eventual noise reduction and sharpening in PS and thats it for 95% of my images. Even better is that most of that can be automatisized by droplets straight out of LR saving you even more time. I do like the postprocessing bit but on large shoots its very timeconsuming and everything that can speed it up is a plus in my book.

The good thing about Lightroom that its so much easier than PS to learn. There are some very nice videotutorials out there some even for free like
the ones by Michael Tapes at http://www.whibalhost.​com/_Tutorials/Photosh​op_LR/01/ or the ones at Adobe http://www.adobe.com …Photoshop+Light​room&go=Go

Check them out as the will give a very good initial overview. If you feel the need after have watched them to learn even more get Michael Evenings book or the videotutorial at Lynda.com.

I do suggest that you invest at least a few hours into learning LR as you will have it back tenfolds in the future. I do fairly large shoots almost every weekend and LR have really changed my workflow from being a nightmare to at least be bearable .

Okay, a little sidetracking maybe, but here's a question:
I'm trying the LR demo right now. I have to 'develop' two versions of 1 CR2 *very* often (to stack them in PS, using a mask). What would be the most efficient way to do that?

René Damkot wrote in post #3170581
Okay, a little sidetracking maybe, but here's a question:
I'm trying the LR demo right now. I have to 'develop' two versions of 1 CR2 *very* often (to stack them in PS, using a mask). What would be the most efficient way to do that?

Creating a virtual copy is your answer to that.

chris.bailey wrote in post #3170089
If we can get back to the original question, it is actually a very good one and one I am seeking to find a good solution to. I find myself increasingly using Lightroom for my whole PP workflow so this in very relevant to me.

I do quite a lot of studio work and find that customers will ask for a variety of print sizes at different aspect ratios. In Photoshop I have tended to do the base PP and then create crops of the customer picks at the different sizes and save these in different directories (i.e. Smith Raw, Smith 7x5, Smith 10x8). This means that at reprint time, I already have all the crop sizes and for lab prints they have what they want. I have also created some custom picture package layouts for some common customer requirements.

In Lightroom, the only solution I have found is to make multiple copies of the customer picks and make a series of crops to suit their requirements. For stuff I print myself this is ok though slightly confusing but for lab work I still end up exporting tiffs at the various sizes. Its OK but hard to retrace ones steps later on and it can get quite confusing. What is most frustrating for me is the inability to set up custom print pages in Lightroom (i.e with diffferent print sizes on the same sheet).

If you are giving these copies to your customers on CD I would create Virtual Copies with the crop sizes you need. Then select Export and choose to burn the files to CD from the top drop down menu. IF you ever need to recreate these files you can export again. You can also create snapshots at the time of export and call them 2007-05-08_Export for reference or something.

I also agree with the inability to create custom pages with different size prints. Hopefully a future update will adress this issue.