For those who continue to bash Microsoft - A Question

Gujustud wrote in post #3190142
Back on topic here.

Wait, there is a topic?

I agree that if there were more macs used, there would be more virusses for 'em.

Some other issues Windows has, I don't think would arise. The OS works different.

First my background, I first learned programming using Fortran and on punch cards. I learned COBOL (grr) amongst other languages. I also have used/owned TRS-80's, Apple II, Commodores. I have a Mac & a home-built PC. I know my way around computers.

Getting back to the OP's question:
I believe the computer is a tool. Just as your camera is a tool. There are good and bad everywhere & I strive for fairness. I have almost become convinced that those who are so obsessive are unable to separate themselves from their tools.

I believe that if Macs had the market share that the PC does, that there would be much more malware & viruses. Apple is not perfect -> my biggest frustration with them currently is the lack of a minitower that the end-user can mod to some degree (I want at least 2 HD bays).

The car reference made me think of the joke about Microsoft designing cars. (If you don't know it, look it up - there are at least 4 or 5 versions).

My major objection is when I see the rabid Mac bashers use cost as an issue - almost always they either leave something out (software item or items, hardware item or items), change the spec (processor, HD size, RAM), or quibble over some small point. The converse also applies.

When someone is asking for help, I try to give it instead of belittling that persons interest in whatever platform. - How many times have we seen that?

When my aunt asked for my recommendations for a computer, I told her to try them out to see what see thought was easiest to use. I also told her to get the largest HD and as much RAM as she could afford. Her son-in-law, a Novell engineer, told her the same thing. She bought a PC & it works for her. Though when my uncle & her son-in-law set it up, they couldn't get any sound. After fiddling around for several hours & calling tech support to no avail -> my aunt solved the problem by turning the volume up on the speakers. That's why I live by the KISS method.

I think they will be similar but different. It will be interesting to see what happens whenever Steve Jobs retires, leaves. At Apple there is a strong emphasis on all aspects of the design.

I rather enjoy those Apple commercials. Funny stuff, not neccessarily close to reality, but funny.

I used to be a Mac person. There was actually a time where you could do things on a Mac that you couldn't easily do in a PC. (Like Music Production, etc...)

Those days are over.

Let's repeat together!

Those days are over.

As for the virus argument, picture yourself a hacker and virus author. Would you get more satisfaction from tageting 90-95% of the users or 5-10%? I'd say the former. Not that is makes it OK for viruses to continue to plague PC's. (FYI, I never had a problem...then again I don't open strange emails or surf strange sites...)

PC or Mac, it doesn't matter nowadays as far as "getting things done" are concerned. Photoshop, Music Production, databases, word processing, spreadsheet, DVD authoring...whatever..​.both gets the job done.

I have ZERO problems with my Core2Duo PC. ZERO. It absolutely kicks butt on everything I throw at it. When I used to own a Mac (most recent was a Dual G5 Tower) I had ZERO problems. Mac looked MUCH sexier. But then I sold it because the Intel Macs were coming out and I didn't want to take a hit in depreciation and I knew my upgrade path was essentially killed.

Somehow, I like the idea that I can buy a cheap mobo and chip and some cheap RAM and get a kick-butt machine up and running. Keep the case. Keep the drives. Keep the video card. I feel like I am in control of my PC.

With the MAC, not so much...although with the Intel chips, you've got to be thinking if you had $2k to spend on a computer, why not buy a Mac tower since it would run Windows....

Then again, I don't spend $2k on computers...I just upgrade the mobo/cpu...

Tony-S wrote in post #3190161
You're making a statement that is not founded in fact. There's a huge number of viruses for Windows and none for OS X. If it were simply an issue of market share (a fraction) then there should be some OS X viruses (another fraction). This isn't the case.

Geez, I hate to get involved in these things, but that simply isn't true. OSX/Leap-A is a worm. A worm is classified as a virus. Therefore, OSX/LeapA is a virus. Here's the text of the security bulletin issued by Sophos, a very large Mac/Windows IT Security firm.

First ever virus for Mac OS X discovered OSX/Leap-A worm spreads via iChat instant messaging software

HTTP response: 404 | MIME changed to 'text/html' | Byte size: ZERO

OSX/Leap-A uses an image of a JPEG icon to try and fool users.

Experts at SophosLabs™, Sophos's global network of virus, spyware and spam analysis centers, have announced the discovery of the first virus for the Apple Mac OS X platform. The virus, named OSX/Leap-A (also known as OSX/Oompa-A) spreads via instant messaging systems.
The OSX/Leap-A worm spreads via the iChat instant messaging system, forwarding itself as a file called latestpics.tgz to contacts on the infected users' buddy list. When the latestpics.tgz archive file is opened on a computer it disguises its contents with a JPEG graphic icon in an attempt to fool people into thinking it is harmless.
The worm uses the text "oompa" as an infection marker in the resource forks of infected programs to prevent it from reinfecting the same files.
"Some owners of Mac computers have held the belief that Mac OS X is incapable of harboring computer viruses, but Leap-A will leave them shellshocked, as it shows that the malware threat on Mac OS X is real," said Graham Cluley, senior technology consultant for Sophos. "Mac users shouldn't think it's okay to lie back and not worry about viruses."
Sophos customers have been automatically protected against the worm since 12:25 GMT, 16 February 2006.
"This is the first real virus for the Mac OS X platform," continued Cluley. "Apple Mac users need to be just as careful running unknown or unsolicited code on their computers as their friends and colleagues running Windows."
Sophos advises all computer users, whether running PCs or Macs, to practise safe computing and keep their anti-virus software updated.
Read a detailed analysis of the OSX/Leap-A worm
Is Leap-A a virus or a Trojan?

Some members of the Apple Macintosh community have claimed that OSX/Leap-A is a Trojan horse, and not a virus or worm, because it requires user interaction (the user has to receive a file via iChat, and manually choose to open and run the file contained inside).
However, this is not the definition of a Trojan horse.
A Trojan horse is a seemingly legitimate computer program that has been intentionally designed to disrupt and damage computer activity. Importantly, Trojan horses do not replicate or have any mechanism of spreading themselves. They have to be deliberately planted on a website, or accidentally shared with another user, or spammed out to email addresses. There is nothing inside a Trojan's code to distribute themselves further to other victims.
Trojan horses do not contain any code to distribute or spread themselves, viruses and worms do.
OSX/Leap-A is programmed to use the iChat instant messaging system to spread itself to other users. As such, it is comparable to an email or instant messaging worm on the Windows platform. Worms are a sub category of the group of malware known as viruses.
Therefore, it is correct to call OSX/Leap-A a virus or a worm. It is not correct to call OSX/Leap-A a Trojan horse

cosworth wrote in post #3190013
So back to the OP's thoughts. Yes, I think that Mac should revel in it's hardware safety. This not unlike why I buy dell laptops. the hardware is carefully selected, all the proper drivers are supplied on a backup disk. It's had the cheap hardware and badly written software weeded out.

There are many chop shop computer stores in my city. I think %50 of all asian exports end up in Vancouver. Lots of crap to install. I steer clear.

Former Mac user and Mac technical support guru here. I like Macs, but they don't offer what I want right now. For Mac users, they offer what they need. Simple enough.

Thanks Jason for your thoughts. I agree with your sentiments earlier as well about all the crap that gets loaded when you buy from Big Box stores and such. Two of my PCs have been from Best Buy, the first was a Compaq, the second a Toshiba Laptop. The Compaq was a P.O.S. right from the start. Eventually I wiped the slate clean and had no real trouble from that point on. I had trouble upgrading the hardware though which is why I then went to home built. Certainly makes sense now that you mention it (I had forgotten how much crap you get).

Gujustud wrote in post #3190142
Why do mac fan boys always have to take these off topic?

Back on topic here. I think this is what the OP was trying to say, and maybe will clear things up a little. Remember this topic on Luminous Landscape?

85% of cameras in a Antartica trip were Canon. Mainly 1Ds, but backups 1D, 5D, xti, etc. And 5 nikons. A ton of the canons failed during the trip, but non of the nikons did.

In the closing thoughts it says "As for why the majority of the camera failures seen on this trip were Canon, the answer is because 85% of the trip's members were shooting Canon. Simple statistics."

Point in fact with PC vs Mac. Now if you still can't understand this, please go buy a nikon and ship forums.

Exactly! Excellent points and the same thing I was thinking. Glad you brought that up.

René Damkot wrote in post #3190182
Wait, there is a topic?

I agree that if there were more macs used, there would be more virusses for 'em.

Some other issues Windows has, I don't think would arise. The OS works different.

Yes Rene, there is a topic. I believe you might be the first MAC user to admit that they would have some trouble if they were more used. You also don't seem to flame us PC users though. Are you sure you use a MAC?

wlescall wrote in post #3190197
First my background, I first learned programming using Fortran and on punch cards. I learned COBOL (grr) amongst other languages. I also have used/owned TRS-80's, Apple II, Commodores. I have a Mac & a home-built PC. I know my way around computers.

Getting back to the OP's question:
I believe the computer is a tool. Just as your camera is a tool. There are good and bad everywhere & I strive for fairness. I have almost become convinced that those who are so obsessive are unable to separate themselves from their tools.

I believe that if Macs had the market share that the PC does, that there would be much more malware & viruses. Apple is not perfect -> my biggest frustration with them currently is the lack of a minitower that the end-user can mod to some degree (I want at least 2 HD bays).

The car reference made me think of the joke about Microsoft designing cars. (If you don't know it, look it up - there are at least 4 or 5 versions).

My major objection is when I see the rabid Mac bashers use cost as an issue - almost always they either leave something out (software item or items, hardware item or items), change the spec (processor, HD size, RAM), or quibble over some small point. The converse also applies.

When someone is asking for help, I try to give it instead of belittling that persons interest in whatever platform. - How many times have we seen that?

When my aunt asked for my recommendations for a computer, I told her to try them out to see what see thought was easiest to use. I also told her to get the largest HD and as much RAM as she could afford. Her son-in-law, a Novell engineer, told her the same thing. She bought a PC & it works for her. Though when my uncle & her son-in-law set it up, they couldn't get any sound. After fiddling around for several hours & calling tech support to no avail -> my aunt solved the problem by turning the volume up on the speakers. That's why I live by the KISS method.

I think they will be similar but different. It will be interesting to see what happens whenever Steve Jobs retires, leaves. At Apple there is a strong emphasis on all aspects of the design.

So another MAC guy believes that they might have trouble as well. And he seems to be much like Rene, giving advice rather than just bashing. See MAC and PC can live in harmony.

nicksan wrote in post #3190294
I rather enjoy those Apple commercials. Funny stuff, not neccessarily close to reality, but funny.

I used to be a Mac person. There was actually a time where you could do things on a Mac that you couldn't easily do in a PC. (Like Music Production, etc...)

Those days are over.

Let's repeat together!

Those days are over.

As for the virus argument, picture yourself a hacker and virus author. Would you get more satisfaction from tageting 90-95% of the users or 5-10%? I'd say the former. Not that is makes it OK for viruses to continue to plague PC's. (FYI, I never had a problem...then again I don't open strange emails or surf strange sites...)

PC or Mac, it doesn't matter nowadays as far as "getting things done" are concerned. Photoshop, Music Production, databases, word processing, spreadsheet, DVD authoring...whatever..​.both gets the job done.

I have ZERO problems with my Core2Duo PC. ZERO. It absolutely kicks butt on everything I throw at it. When I used to own a Mac (most recent was a Dual G5 Tower) I had ZERO problems. Mac looked MUCH sexier. But then I sold it because the Intel Macs were coming out and I didn't want to take a hit in depreciation and I knew my upgrade path was essentially killed.

Somehow, I like the idea that I can buy a cheap mobo and chip and some cheap RAM and get a kick-butt machine up and running. Keep the case. Keep the drives. Keep the video card. I feel like I am in control of my PC.

With the MAC, not so much...although with the Intel chips, you've got to be thinking if you had $2k to spend on a computer, why not buy a Mac tower since it would run Windows....

Then again, I don't spend $2k on computers...I just upgrade the mobo/cpu...

Hey now, a MAC to PC convert. According to all the rest, you must be the first.

prime80 wrote in post #3190299
Geez, I hate to get involved in these things, but that simply isn't true. OSX/Leap-A is a worm. A worm is classified as a virus. Therefore, OSX/LeapA is a virus. Here's the text of the security bulletin issued by Sophos, a very large Mac/Windows IT Security firm.

My understanding is that viruses are self-propagating, worms are not. Worms require some kind of user intervention. Leap-A is a worm by this definition as it requires the user to do two interventions, dearchive it, then open it (requiring password).

Either way, the malware burden between Macs and PCs is substantial.

R,PP and P deals with computer gear.

In2Photos wrote in post #3190334
Are you sure you use a MAC?

Yep... PC's don't last long with me: I smash them to pieces out of frustration: I keep hitting the 'Windows' button when I want to hit Opt-anything.

Also I don't understand windows: Tried installing a driver once, nearly drove me nuts.

Tony-S wrote in post #3190448
My understanding is that viruses are self-propagating, worms are not. Worms require some kind of user intervention. Leap-A is a worm by this definition as it requires the user to do two interventions, dearchive it, then open it (requiring password).

While I won't argue that point, I would counter it with the fact that a large majority of the Windows "viruses" are worms as well, yet noone has a problem calling them viruses.

Tony-S wrote in post #3190448
Either way, the malware burden between Macs and PCs is substantial.

Agreed. But that is not the point here. The question is whether Apple would close that gap significantly if they gained a substantial market share. I agree with most of the posters here that they would. OSX probably is inherently more secure than Windows due to design and the fact that the OS doesn't have to deal with but a small fraction of the potential hardware/software combinations that Windows does. However, if the worlds best hackers/crackers focused on it like they do on windows, I have no doubt that they would find plenty of vulnerabilities.

FYI, I am a PC guy, but I used to work with Macs at our company all the time until they made the switch to Dell PCs. I like to tinker with my machines too much to get into a closed system like that, but I'd love to have one of the new ones as a second machine to play with. The both do what they do, and they both do it well. It's up to the user to select the right one for him/her and maintain it properly.

Well I hope Mac usage grows but by no means to the widespread amount of current Windows boxes - at least i wouldn't want that.

I think Village_Idiot or someone asked about what bank or the likes uses Apple/Mac OSX to store credit card data?

Answer: Xtech who processes the highest volume of credit card transaction world wide.
They have named their Xserve cluster "The Aquarium" it is housed in a room made of glass walls and naturally has the look of an Aquarium.

MIME changed to 'text/html' | Content warning: script

hannaxt wrote in post #3190593
Well I hope Mac usage grows but by no means to the widespread amount of current Windows boxes - at least i wouldn't want that.

I think Village_Idiot or someone asked about what bank or the likes uses Apple/Mac OSX to store credit card data?

Answer: Xtech who processes the highest volume of credit card transaction world wide.
They have named their Xserve cluster "The Aquarium" it is housed in a room made of glass walls and naturally has the look of an Aquarium.

HTTP response: NOT FOUND | MIME changed to 'text/html' | Content warning: script

What do they use for an OS? I think that is what Village_Idiot wants to know.

In2Photos wrote in post #3190607
What do they use for an OS? I think that is what Village_Idiot wants to know.

Best I know (being honest but not 100% certain) OSX.
I'll look into it and re post.

The only other OS would be Linux and probably Yellow Dog ?

In2Photos,
To answer your question, yes. Simple statistics, economics and observation verify this.

BTW, one heck of a thread you started here.:p

As for the entire debate between PC users and MAC users, I made a personal decision a long time ago to refrain from joining in. Both have, in the past, had their advantages over the other, DEPENDING ON WHAT THEY WERE USED FOR. Jumping into that argument is the same as trying to tell a religious zealot that their religion is false. Facts just don't seem to matter.

Any more, there is no distinct advantage to one over the other. Remember, it's not the hardware that you do it on, nor the software that you do it with, it's what you do with it that is important.

Chase Merchant Services is the world's largest processor of Visa and MasterCard transactions. First Data is a close second.

"one of " and "is" are often mistaken.