Help with Colour Calibration

Yep your images have to be sRgb. The only place your monitor profile should be is in your calibration software, it should never go anywhere near photoshop or your images. You have to assume every web browser can only understand sRgb, because that's true 90% of the time - firefox / IE on the PC can't understand color profiles.

This is why I recommended reading the book before you try to do stuff, it's really hard to explain, especially since my understanding isn't perfect. I'll read the book again one day.

PhilN wrote in post #3197569
All my images are 8bit RGB, is this different to sRGB?

sRgb is a color profile. RGB is a general method for encoding images. They're completely different AFAIK.

PhilN wrote in post #3195688
Ive posted three images below:
1 is processed with my monitor profile. Its supposed to be quite dark and sombre, but not overly dark, still plenty of detail.
2 Is converted to sRGB, and I see no difference whether I have my monitor set to its own proflie or sRGB.
3 Is sRGB, but to compensate for the washed out colours I adjusted them. Once saved out from PS again, in any other app its much darker, whci I really dont get.
Is there a difference for you, or anyone else reading?

Images #1 and 2 look (nearly) identical in FireFox. #3 is darker.
In Safari (color managed) #2 is darker then #1. #3 is darker still.

If you converted from your monitor profile to sRGB, and attached the profile in both images, both should look the same in Safari. Since it didn't I checked.
Turns out the first one doesn't have an embedded profile.
If I open both in PS, and assign sRGB to the first, the one with monitor profile looks a bit darker and more saturated. That should not be the case if you converted correctly. I tried converting from the monitor profile to sRGB, and the image didn't change one bit.

Image #2 and 3 both have your monitors profile.

My guess is something went wrong with converting to sRGB, since you didn't, and all images should have your monitor profile. (When I assigned sRGB to the #2, it appeared identical to the first one I assigned sRGB to. I think assigning an sRGB profile makes the images a bit better frankly.)

When converting from one color space to another, images should not change. (much)
When converting from a smaller color space to a bigger one, colors should not change at all.

You don't set sRGB as monitor profile. Set your monitor profile as monitor profile.
You don't use your monitor profile *anywhere else*.

In the link in my sig there are a few links regarding rendering intent. Once you understand those, color space conversion should become clearer.

Most used are relative colorimetric and perceptual.
Engine: No idea really, should not make a big difference. I use Adobe.


Conclusion: A lot of things going wrong here. Not sure what you did with the images, but of the ones you put on here, none is sRGB. So whatever it is you are doing you are not converting to sRGB.
It should be done in the Edit > Convert to profile menu. Might be you are only changing the default working space in PS? That has no influence whatsoever on opened images.

If you click in the lower left border of the image (arrow next to where the document size is shown), you can go 'show > color profiles'. About the most usefull thing to have there...

Rene thanks for your time, really really do apreciate it!
Your little tip about how to view the embedded profile is great, learned something new again!
I dont know what happened, I did the conversion but for some reason it went wrong. I just tried again and this time the profile seems embeded. Also when I converted the file size grew, so I had to save for web again to downsample it. I have a feeling that cant be right?
Ive attached the image again, hopefully this should be right. I appreciate you have no idea how I perceive the image should look......also a screen grab with the histogram if this gives any clues?

The main image looks very dark to me on here. The small image with the histogram looks right,its not as dark, so god knows whats happened here. It was a screen grab and then pasted to a new file, saved with srgb, so now I have to figure out why they are different

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PhilN wrote in post #3199112
Ive attached the image again, hopefully this should be right. I appreciate you have no idea how I perceive the image should look......also a screen grab with the histogram if this gives any clues?

The main image looks very dark to me on here. The small image with the histogram looks right,its not as dark, so god knows whats happened here. It was a screen grab and then pasted to a new file, saved with srgb, so now I have to figure out why they are different

The screen shot isn't color managed in Windows. When you pasted it into an sRGB document, I think PS should have asked what to do about the profile?
I'm not sure about this, since it's windows, but I think that the screenshot looks the same as the 'Sony LCD' file with assigned sRGB profile. (Since the screenshot essentially has your monitor profile). Again, since this is Windows, I'm not sure, so someone correct me if I'm wrong

The histogram looks the same as in the sRGB image. Histogram in the file with the Sony LCD profile looks different (more to the right). That should account for the difference in file size).
All it tells me is that there are a lot of dark tones in the image, with a few blown portions in the highlights. (That would be the sky). I knew that allready

To the issue at hand: My guess would be that the sRGB image should look as much the same between your different monitors then other, similair dark' images. Right?

I think Im starting to get my head around this.
When I first started using PS the images I saved looked washed out, same as another OP on here..now I know because colour management was not set up, and windows picture viewer doesnt colour manage.
I found that using my monitor profile sorted the probelm, in PS they looked great, out of PS they looked great....naturally now I see.
So I need to get calibrated, and use the correct profiles, and Im hopimg that as my screen seems to be about right from the research Ive done, it should be ok with exixting images. Im hoping that once I assign the correct profile to the images (backed up first) they wont look washed out because the screen is calibrated.
Something odd has happened today though........
The profile I had set as the working space in PS "SonyLCD_Std" has vanished as an option to select. I now have "Monitor RGB_sRGB IEC61966-2.1".
When I open an image that is untagged I dont get a warning of a profile mismatch, I presume because its the same.
But when I open an image that has the Sony LCD profile embedded, and select "convert to working space" it then shows on the bottom info panel "sRGB".
However if I open using the embedded profile and then conver the profile to sRGB, the info then says "untagged"?
Ive no idea where the Sony profile has gone or whats going on here?

Let me repeat something: Do not set your monitor profile as a working space!
Never, ever.

Don't!

Ever.

Okay, now that that is settled :

Working space should be sRGB IEC61966-2.1. Which should not be the monitor profile.
All "profile mismatch" warning boxes should be checked. (Optional: leave the first one (mismatch, ask when opening) unchecked. You do have to watch out to see what profile is used then when using different profiles at times. Mostly because you'ld need to convert to sRGB for web.)
Use the "Sony LCD_ D65" profile as monitor profile.

Once you backed up the images, you probabely want to convert them to sRGB.

Rene, I consider myself well and truly told lol. Ive got it onto my head that I should not use the monitor profile, just confused about where is has gone. Im playing with settings to try to understand............​...

When I open an image, if I open with the embedded profile and then convert it to sRGB, I get "untagged", so it wont embed the new profile. But if I open and convert to the workspace profile, it does update correctly. Now Im confused about this because yesterday I could open and convert, or open and use workspace profile. Seems there is something amis here?

hmmmmm......I just converted a new image.
In my control panel I have another setting for monitor profile Monitor sRGB.
So I selected this, made sure PS is sRBG.
Processed a new RAW from DPP, brought it into PS and made sure its sRGB. Then downsampled it and saved for web, dumped it on a page on my site, and result!! It looks frighteningly close on three different screens, a slight colour cast as would be expected because none are calibrated, but whats important is that contrast, levels, saturation and tone seem very good. So maybe Im getting somewhere....thanks to you guys.
It also answers another question. I started using Lightroom to manage files, but found they were slightly lower contrast when imported and zerod. Applying LR default contrast helped, but if exported out again, too much contrast / saturation. So I was resigned to applying defaults for viewing in LR, but zeroing if I needed to re export (maybe off topic but just for info).
I brought the same image I just processed in, and its fine, a very slight difference, but an acceptable one. Getting happy

Good Grief........images that are "untagged" I cant convert to sRGB. Images that have a profile embedded I can, so how do I convert the untagged images. I can assign, but this is not advisable?

You can't convert images between profiles if there's no existing profile, as it doesn't know what to convert it from, but you can "assign" a profile. Don't confuse assign and convert, they're completely different. Assign is to tell it what profile it is without changing the numbers in the file, convert changes the numbers.

The thing you have to work out is do you need to assign sRgb, or do you need to assign your monitor profile then convert to sRgb? It depends how you did things before. Try both methods to see, then batch it using an action. Make sure to preview the finished images in a program that's not color profile aware, I use ACDSee 5.0 which only understands sRgb. Any that don't look right you'll have to play with the whole assign/convert thing a bit.

PhilN wrote in post #3202530
When I open an image, if I open with the embedded profile and then convert it to sRGB, I get "untagged", so it wont embed the new profile. <...>
Seems there is something amis here?

Strange. Should be able to convert from the "Sony LCD" or whatever profile to sRGB, regardless of what you replied to the pop up box for profile mismatch... (unless you got a "missing profile" dialog, and chose "don't color manage": Then there is no profile)
Where do you get "untagged"? What does the 'lower left' of the image window say for color profile?

PhilN wrote in post #3202712
Good Grief........images that are "untagged" I cant convert to sRGB. Images that have a profile embedded I can, so how do I convert the untagged images. I can assign, but this is not advisable?

Yep. You must assign. But the tricky part is, you have to assign the right profile: The profile that was used when you were working on that file, the profile that should have been embedded so to speak.

Might be an exif viewer is capable of telling what profile was used, might be it's just a guessing game. I which case Tims' method seems the best way to go...

I've had to help a (pro) photographer once, who also accidently forgot to tick the 'include ICC' profile box. He had images both AdobeRGB and sRGB, some with some without profile. Some with original filenames (which made it easier, since the AdobeRGB ones started with an "_"), some renamed. Took us a few hours to figure out what images were whal profile, and assign the good ones.

Morale: You aren't the first to mess this up, you won't likely be the last, and you will get it sorted out

I opened an image with no profile tagged, in the info pane on the bottom of the image it says "untagged".
So I assigned profile "Sony LCD" which made the image slightly darker. sRGB seems closer to what I originally intended.
But if I assign the Sony profile, resave, reopen and conver to "sRGB" profile, I again get "untagged" shown on the info field.
If I open and select "convert to" the workspace profile in the mismatch warning, its then converted to sRGB. When I save and open again it is sRGB.
What seems odd is that I cant convert a profile once its open.....I can only convert it when I get the mismatch warning.

PhilN wrote in post #3202847
I opened an image with no profile tagged, in the info pane on the bottom of the image it says "untagged".
So I assigned profile "Sony LCD" which made the image slightly darker. sRGB seems closer to what I originally intended.

Assign sRGB then...

PhilN wrote in post #3202847
But if I assign the Sony profile, resave, reopen and conver to "sRGB" profile, I again get "untagged" shown on the info field.

Are you sure the box 'embed color profile" is ticked? (Note: When you do a 'save' instead of 'save as', PS might not include the profile, since there wasn't one in the original Not sure though.) ISTR that in the case of the photographer I mentioned, PS didn't think assigning a profile was enough of a change to the file that a 'save' was needed... It allowed closing the file without asking for a save.

PhilN wrote in post #3202847
If I open and select "convert to" the workspace profile in the mismatch warning, its then converted to sRGB. When I save and open again it is sRGB.
What seems odd is that I cant convert a profile once its open.....I can only convert it when I get the mismatch warning.

I think you aren't getting a "mismatch" warning, but you are getting a "missing profile" warning. They are different. The former allows you to convert to a profile, or use the one embedded, the latter allows you to *assign* a profile or forget about color management....

edit>convert to profile> Destination Space: Profile:sRGB IEC61966-2.1
Conversion Options: Engine: Adobe (ACE) Intent: Relative Colormetric | o Use Black Point Compensation | o Use Dither
file>save as... or file>save for web...

how does this chart appear to you?

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