How to react with a problem camera

"

Perfect -

But it's all how you teach one to fish as to whether or not they will have the desire to learn for themselves.

Jumping down someone's throat, or belittling them only breeds hostility. Politely and friendly directing someone to the 'Search' feature and or a previous post will encourage constructive participation.

There is more internet BS floating around and rumors get perpetuated because 'someone read something somewhere'...

This forum and it's members have the opportunity to clarify much of those BS issues when a newbie asks a dumb question, and at one time or another we all just wanted to be handed a fish.

Thanks to all.

Michael

[rant on]
Once, in a different universe, I was trying to answer a customer technical support call to a product vendor, and the regular technical support guy was out to lunch. The customer caller wanted to know what the password was to log onto his system.

I politely told him that the password was in his product manual, page 12, about the second paragraph down from the top of the page.

Then he asked, "Well, what is it?"

I told him, "Page 12 of the manual, about the second paragraph down from the top."

By this time, the caller was pissed.

I asked him if he had the product manual, and he said he did.

(pause)

Then I asked him if there was anything else I could do for him that day.

By then he was really pissed and hung up.

About five minutes later, my boss came running over to my office and asked me if I knew what the standard password was.

I said, "Yes, it is in the manual on page 12, about the second paragraph down."

It turned out that the irate customer had hung up on me and then called back to find somebody else that would tell him the answer that he wanted to hear. Nobody would tell him directly, and he was getting pissed for nothing.

Here is the reason. If we told the password to any fool who called up and asked, then anybody could hack into a valid system with that password and cause disruption. If we told callers to look it up at a specific spot in the manual, that that would exclude outside hackers, because they would not have the manual.

My point is in agreement with a couple of the others on this thread. Tell them where to find the answer, or how to derive the answer on their own. But, if you just tell them the answer every time, they aren't going to remember it or record it. They will just keep calling back to ask the same question over and over.
[rant off]

---Bob Gross---

I have to agree with that. When I learn something new I like to really know what I'm doing and why. It's not good enough or someone to just tell me "You do it like this". So either they say that and then I go try it and see how it all fits together, or they also tell me why it works like that and I go try it and see how it all fits together.

But I also think it's not always helpful to tell a newby to "Use the search function" or "go find out for youself". Of course it can lead to a better understanding of the subject but more often than not there's so much info out there that just finding what you're looking for can be hard enough (especially if you're new and you don't know all the lingo and you may not know what to even call what you are looking for in search engine terms). and of course once you find lots of info there is often a lot of contradiction going on and you can end up more confused than when you started.


............


I was going to come to a conclusion there but my mind's gone blank, and I need to get some sleep.


i'd just like to say that as a new member here I have fealt very welcom and found the members here helpful and generous with their time and knowledge, so thanks - i'm glad to be a member.

better get some kip now

regards,

arum

I like this thread,.. and I think this all needs to be discussed.

The Issues at hand are a number.. but in my opinion.. and in the general "mission" of this forum as a whole.. the question Bob asks, though relevant..

...should really have NOT been "How to react with a problem camera" for a new poster here... for they are "new" and thus are very likely not to understand this yet.

I agree with what Bob is saying.. I think it would be great if the manual was cracked and searches run BEFORE the post came up here...

But we as the educated comunity of THIS forum.. we are not going to be posting such a post.. or asking such a question ...

Rather we are going to be the ones responding..

Thus the question at hand is this;

How do WE react to a post concerning an alleged "problem Camera"

We can't alter what the first time user asks...

But we are all reasonable adults here and should be able to handle the sort of hysterical posts that come in when someone has what they perceive to be a dud camera... we've done it in fact hundreds of times!

Some people may need hand holding.. some may need to be walked through a situation.. and yes it may seem tedious. But we should not allways assume that the newcomer is "wrong" or has made an assumption in error. We need to take the time to go through the steps to resolve whether the issue is the Camera or the user.

My advice to anyone who has lost patience and does not wish to take the time to be generous and helpfull to a disgruntled newbie.. quite simple IGNORE THE POST

The dicotomy here is interesting as the last time "Moderation" was called for in the EOS forum with such an issue the tables were reversed. It was a member who had responded with patience and the generosity of his experience that was taken to task because his educated answer to a question was not appreciated.

When the tables are turned in such a case THEN it is the responsibility of the newcomer to have the patience and understanding.


But.. we can never expect the newcomer to ask a question exactly how we would like it to be asked. Life does not work that way.

Last point..

This forum is supposed to be the Mecca.. the point of light in the vast darkness of the internet for those seeking answers to Canon related problems... a haven if you will.

It is a VERY sad thing to see someone stumble upon our shores at the end of there quest for guidance only to be pushed back into the sea of hysteria so abruptly.

CyberDyneSystems wrote:
This forum is supposed to be the Mecca..
the point of light in the vast darkness of the internet
...
It is a VERY sad thing to see someone stumble upon our shores at the end of there quest for guidance only to be pushed back into the sea of hysteria so abruptly.

Damn. Are you running for Congress?

---Bob Gross---

CyberDyneSystems wrote:
This forum is supposed to be the Mecca.. the point of light in the vast darkness of the internet for those seeking answers to Canon related problems... a haven if you will.

It is a VERY sad thing to see someone stumble upon our shores at the end of there quest for guidance only to be pushed back into the sea of hysteria so abruptly.

It's Official: I'm selling WWCDSD bracelets after the show! . Just kidding, I agree with the 'haven' and fishing ideologies. The significant number of people from various experience and locale who stop by and often stick around wouldn't be served well by a narrowly focused modus operandi be it with a kidd glove mentality or a poke_in_the_eye reference to RTFM. Sometimes a direct sink or swim response is warranted and other times a mentor/student response is appropriate. A soft answer to someone in need of a kick the pants does as much disservice as a harsh retort to an innocent request. Analogy upon analogy bears out that our response is important and should be offered with the same if not more care than with what we expect of the new people learning the ropes. An example of what we expect is who we should be, or something like that .

Not all initial posts can be judged for integrity and worthwhile response; but most can. Without question an experienced person would think it a requirement of ownership that a person at least browse the owners manual or attempt to search forum topics for an answer; but the process of learning also includes learning to read when appropriate and ask when appropriate. Our response to that individual will enhance their learning experience adding to forum intellect or dissuade a person from being productive, potentially distracting others. There is always an exception to the rule... but they are just that - exceptions.

Man, now I'm daydreaming about going fishing...

Thanks TOM!

the NEWBIE has good news

Oh dear, what a mess! I am the original “Newbie�, as I was referred to, that evidently caused this entire ruckus. Not new to photography but new to forums.
Having contacted the seller of the camera, I was advised that this would have to be taken up with the manufacturer as it was not a definitive failure . I attempted to contact Canon email and got one reply with standard answers and asked if I wanted to elevate the problem to Tech service. My response was yes. Then I heard no more from Canon. I went on the net and found some articles that showed how do to a full focus test. Which, I did. Not once but 4 times with the results being the same each time. That was when I posted the initial request for help, thinking that if someone else had experienced the same problem I might be guided to the right person at Canon.

Any way, The latest on the 10 D………………. Yes, the local Canon dealer has confirmed that there is indeed a focus problem with my camera. The good news, it can be quickly remedied. The camera is on its way back to Canon right now.

What caused me to request the post to be closed was the almost universal assumption that I had not read and fully understood the manual. (I had read it three times, I do this with any new camera). "It had to be something the Newbie was doing wrong" thing that did get me down. There was also the assumption that I appeared to be a “Newbie� to photography and digital cameras. Again, wrong! I have been using them for about 5 years and have three.
Yes I am a "Newbie" to the 10D and spent a week getting to know the camera and all of the minor tweaks and adjustments. I do this for a very clear and simple reason. When I carry any camera I need to know that if the shot of a lifetime pops up in front of me, my fingers know exactly where to go to adjust the settings. and to be able to instantly tweak for the ultimate shot. Actually the 10D is easy to handle for the person used to the existing film Eos cameras of which I have three. The digital controls were easy to understand and master as the manual is concise and exceptionally well written.
My only regret over this whole incident is that I did not clearly state what I had already done and the assistance I was looking for. For that I do sincerely apologize.

I have read some of the new follow up posts and it continues on in the same vein, with one poster saying: “I wanted to kick of my shoes and let others do the work for me�, I had a good chuckle over that one! Come on guys lighten up a little, this is a fun hobby and occupation, lets keep it that way. A little patience and a helping hand go a long way. I have people come in to the studio and ask how to operate their digital cameras. Several have even had the gall to ask how they should set up at home to do the family portraits. Now bear in mind that portraiture is a good chunk of my studio's income. All the requests are met with a courteous response and if I have time I will even go over the basics of their camera with them. This has actually gained me some business in the long run, Do I tell them how to set up for portraits? Heck no! I usually refer them to the library so that they can read “how to� like I did many years ago.


Despite some of the responses I would like to thank those that did take the time to post helpful replies and I will continue to take a peek at this site to catch the latest tips etc.
But In all due respect, please guy’s, don’t jump to conclusions without asking a few more questions. Let’s all be honest, this wasn’t much of a welcome to a NEWBIE 10D owner was it? As I said I am new to the forum environment and I made some mistakes, but if another newbie pops in think about how your response is going to be viewed.

On a positive note, I cant wait to get my 10D back as I am still looking forward to taking my studio fully digital for the portraiture and industrial Macro work. I have stayed with film for this up until now. The 10D was finally affordable enough for me and the big plus was that I could use all my existing lenses and synch to my studio strobes.
So happy shooting to all and please……….lets leave an old dog lay.
Look forward to stopping in every so often to take a look. There does appear to be some definite advantages to being able to tap in to such a valuable resource.
My apologies for having not been clear and concise originally and for responding the way I did, but I saw no useful purpose in that thread continuing in the way it was heading.
Roger

Well, at least you came back. Let me be the first to say WELCOME and I hope you stop in often enough to be a regular contributor. Everyone here has different approaches, but to be fair, this is overall an excellent site and a wonderful resource. Welcome again.

Hopefully, you will have your 10D back soon and post some of your work for us to see.

Roger:
The original post in the thread didn't reference anyone in particular that I could identify. I thought the author's statement was really more general in nature and somewhat rhetorical. If you have reason to believe it was directed to you personally, I think that is unfortunate and I hope you are mistaken.

I also hope your camera is returned to you soon and operaties to your satisfaction. We'll be interested in hearing how this all turns out.

Good luck,

Tom

Roger, glad to see that your camera is getting the attention that it deserves. And I'm glad to see that you made it back.

The focus issue is probably the most talked-about issue in all internet camera forums. Its also the most mis-understood issue of all. Frankly, there is a great deal of hysteria surrounding the issue, with a large number of people claiming trouble where there is none at all. I alluded to it earlier in this thread, but I'll repeat it - My guess is that 95 out of 100 people that are complaining about focus issues don't have a focus problem. Its a combination of many factors including internet hysteria, poorly performed focus tests, misunderstanding of depth-of-field, and unrealistic expectations brought on by the ability to look at things with 100% magnification (how many people have enlarged 35 mm prints beyond 8X10?).

So when you posted a focus problem, experience led many to believe that you fell into that large group of folks that "think" they have a problem but don't. But unfortunately, you instead fell into that smaller group that really _did_ have a problem. You've kind-of fallen into the the "boy that cried wolf" scenario. And that's unfortunate, given that the problem is, in your case, very real.

Every now and then, one leaves the factory a little out of adjustment, or UPS roughes it up a bit or something. Anyway, a bad one finds its way to the customer on occasion.

Anyway, you've just about made it through boot camp so you might as well stick around now.

Welcome back Roger. You going to email me those photos? In spite of your initial (un)welcome here, this is a friendly group and we have lots of fun. Please fell free and hang out here...

I think Roger is probably correct in assuming that this thread is partly a result of the thread that was locked... it was a spark if you will

But .. this was not the only instance.. I would guess that Roger's case was just one of many that instigated Mr. Gross' post here. The resulting discussion is clearly about much larger issues and many "cases"

Anyway... you all know my opinions on both this thread and the issues it addresses as wel as the treatment that Roger recieved.

We can and will do a better job of this.. we do it often in fact.

I am very glad to see you returned Roger.. and I look forward to seeing more of you here.. especially when you get that defective camera back all fixed up and you can show us a thing or two about taking pics! 8)