Motorway Incident

Terrible incident.

It bothers me when people don't move over for emergency services. I was in an ambulance last year here in Korea while a friend was seriously injured, the cars just ignored the sirens and carried on as normal - quite shocking how insignificant others lives are in the East compared with the West.

taygull wrote in post #3455703
If the firetruck had blocked the traffic in the left lane and rerouted traffic coming up the on ramp it would have been impossible for a vehicle to hit them.

I don't understand this, how can a fire truck block the on ramp and 2 lanes of the motorway at the same time....where are you suggesting the firetruck should have stopped?

Is it only firetrucks which block all the motorways, because from what I've seen on TV footage of road traffic collisions it seems the police and paramedic vehicles don't?

Cathus wrote in post #3456736
I don't understand this, how can a fire truck block the on ramp and 2 lanes of the motorway at the same time....where are you suggesting the firetruck should have stopped?

Is it only firetrucks which block all the motorways, because from what I've seen on TV footage of road traffic collisions it seems the police and paramedic vehicles don't?

Not here in the states, any vehicle can block the road way. I've been first on the scene and used my vehicle to block a direct path to the stranded or injured motorist.

Common sense and basic training is a valuable commodity when you are working in an unsafe environment.

Blocking a road by positioning a vehicle or a helper is very simple. There is no need for an emergency vehicle to be sitting in front of a vehicle it is rendering aid to...they should always be in a behind position where if they were impacted they would be far enough away to not impact the "safe area" of those rendering aid.

It doesn't really matter what should have been done by anyone at that scene anymore. What's done is done and someone died. The pictures are very powerful. Thanks for sharing them.

While my husband *only* drives a tow truck, I know that in Alberta you MUST slow down when passing an accident scene, a tow truck hooking up a vehicle or passing through a construction zone. The fines are doubled if you're caught going over the speed limit in these areas. You can expect to fork out up to $700 for speeding past these workers and putting their lives in jeopardy.
http://www.ama.ab.ca …/member_service​s_5315.htm

taygull wrote in post #3455703
Sorry but you are so wrong....

If a fire truck here in the states is at a scene they block ANY chance of a motorist to impact the scene. This protects them and the citizen.

If the firetruck had blocked the traffic in the left lane and rerouted traffic coming up the on ramp it would have been impossible for a vehicle to hit them.

I beg to differ, your claim isnt altogether correct.
The recent case in New Jersey where a Chief was arrested by State Troopers for blocking a live lane i would sugest does not give a carte blanche procedure in such cases.
The driver of the Engine concerned was also cited for failing to comply with the orders of a State Trooper.

As for this tragic incident, the fend off however it was put in, may not have made any difference the photos clearly show the position of the stricken vehicle, there isnt mention of any other vehicle being struck.
That being the case it would therefore appear that after loosing control and crossing other lane/s that was the only vehicle struck.

The dynamics of a scene and resources available at the time will always require attending services to make best use of what they have at the time.
In an ideal world all the emergency service would be attendance and suitable measures be put in place to deal with and make an area safe.

Taygull,
thanks for the reply but you've not answered my question, well you answered the one about any vehicle can block but I kind of knew that, my question on that point was that from what I've seen, a vehicle on the hard shoulder doesn't appear to necessitate blocking of the whole motorway, otherwise how would police traffic cars deal with stops on the motorway?

My main question was where would you park your firetruck to block 2 lanes of onslip and 2 lanes of main carriageway?

taygull wrote in post #3456794
Blocking a road by positioning a vehicle or a helper is very simple. There is no need for an emergency vehicle to be sitting in front of a vehicle it is rendering aid to...they should always be in a behind position where if they were impacted they would be far enough away to not impact the "safe area" of those rendering aid.

And what relevence has that to do with this incident? As I've stated previously in this thread, parking a firetruck behind the car would have made no difference since the car which crashed into the scene came from the main carriageway, not immediately behind the scene (which would have been coming up the on slip). If it was parked behind the scene it would have been on the onslip offering much less visible warning to users of the main carriageway that an incident was occurring at the side of the motorway.

All the comments about speeding past an incident have little relevance also since we don't know the speed of the vehicle which crashed, it's interesting that everyone thinks if a car crashed it must have been speeding. It could have been that the driver of the car that crashed into the scene had a heart attack at the wheel? Where would that leave all those comments about speeding, vehicle positioning etc? quite simply irrelevent.

I do agree that the only way to completely avoid something crashing into a similar scene would be to close the whole motorway, but that simply doesn't happen with a car being tended to which isn't in a live lane. And it also opens up the possibility of further crashes happening in the tailback - anyone who has ever worked a motorway will know that if a road is blocked there is a very good chance of further collisions in the tailback. How many people have died because someone wasn't paying attention and couldn't stop in time when the whole carriageway was blocked? That's one of the main reasons why police want to open the motorway as soon as they can because a blocked motorway is a serious hazard waiting for a further collision, it's not all about keeping the economy running.

Cathus,

I'm not going to take the time to draw a diagram, it is really not that difficult to block an area with an angled vehicle parked in a rear position. I don't think you want to listen or see that there is a simple solution, you just want to disagree.

A safe zone could have very easily been created by angling one or two of the vehicles and leaving the right lane open for traffic. If lights were left on the emergency vehicle(s) and a portion of the freeway were closed it causes the oncoming traffic to slow down.

taygull,

sorry, I misunderstood, you, I thought you were saying the whole motorway should have been closed/blocked with one fire truck, as several US-based people appear to be saying, I was trying to suggest how impractical and unsafe this would be with a single firetruck.

I see that you are not saying that, you appear to be just advocating closing one of the lanes next to the truck, which is fair enough, we often do this depending on the circumstances and the whole motorway would have been temporarily closed had the vehicle been on fire. I was also pointing out that in the particular circumstances of this incident, closing the inside lane would be far more difficult with one firetruck because in order to close lane 1 of the motorway (the inside lane) you would also have had to close the on slip and you can't do that with one tender.

I'm really not trying to pick an argument, I'm just fascinated by the woulda, coulda, shoulda brigade who always know best after the event.

I suppose what I'm really saying is all this debate about what should have happened is quite futile since none of you know what happened and why, anything you say is based on supposition.

The sad thing thing is that a firefighter died and most people are more concerned not with the nature of the photographs presented as an example of 'reportage' style photography, and how important it can be (these pics will probably form evidence in any subsequent trial/investigation) but more an attitude of "well, he shoulda done this or that". But I suppose that is the nature of a discussion forum.

By the way, a diagram would have been extremely helpful, don't they say a picture paints a thousand words?

I suppose ultimately what I'm saying is that any debate about why this happened is quite futile since none of you know what happened and why and anything you say is based on supposition & guesswork

Thanks,

but debate is a good thing, you never know where it can lead. If anything I would suspect the debate will help bring attention to the fact that all drivers "must" slow down when emergency vehicles are on a scene.

I think it is also important to remember when a citizen is rendering aid they need to take precautionary measures to prevent secondary accidents.

Cathus, at first Yes if i had both due engines i would block ONLY the lane closest to the car in need, i would ONLY block all lanes if safety made it so. EI Large car fire, MVA rolled of and still in the travel lane.

I beg to differ with the New Jersey ticket issued to the fire department by the state police, During the accident if the fire department is actively working they have command of the scene and can close down any lane need, with need, we can't just roll up and say what the hell let's close it down, but if we need to we will. If i safe your life doing so and get arrested I am OK with that, i will sleep good in jail knowing i saved your life and it might cost me $2,000.00 and 2 years in jail, i can deal with that. I am thinking there may be more to the story. In my township the police would under stand, i would also understnad we need to hurry and get the lane open ASAP.

I will try and describe the set up. lets say your headed north, the car in need is on the right side hard shoulder. As you are driving you are about 1 to 3/4 of a mile from the scene you'll see a portable sign on the right side shoulder stating an accident is ahead, an arrow will show you which lane to get into. About 1/2 mile from the scene will be a smaller 3/4 ton truck (grass rig) with a sign like the first and an arrow stick pointing you to the left again. 1/4 mile you will have a large engine (4-5 ton) this truck is parked mostly blocking the right lane, it will have the front bumper in the center of the right lane, as you approach it will be at about a 45° angle, thus if you hit it you will "bounce" into the left lane and NOT the right (working area) lane. From this truck you will be in one lane (left) and there will be orange cones keeping the expressway restricted to the left lane only. Now the next thing you will see is another truck like the first it will be....let's say hiding the scene. In case of fire it will be more south of the scene for obvious reasons (heat) for a medical/MVA this truck maybe parked as close to the wreck as 30 feet. to hit a Fire fighter/Medic you most likely have to hit the truck with great enough speed to slide the 5 ton truck with 1,500 gallons of water in it, into the workers. This truck will also be parked at a 45° angle with the front pointed to the left lane. Our Medical truck which weight about 3 tons will be park in the right lane "behind/Blocked" but the larger engine. Let's say you happen to go off the left edge of the road and "jerk" the wheel hard to the right to correct, you skid and just miss the front of the on scene engine you will hit the medical truck, if you slide past the medical truck you might hit a cop car.

Please do not think that the people here in the states are calling anyone fools. But to me it is totaly senseless to die to put out a car fire. I am willing to die to save anyones life, don't get me wrong. But I am not going to do so fooleshy. I just hate to hear of a fellow Brother die. Weither the live in Michigan or any country.

1 . | * ok lets try this the "1"'s are traffic moving. "|" is the medical truck,
1 . \ "1" traffic. "\" large engine. the "*" is the car in need, "." cones
1 .
1 .
1 .
1 \

Terrible shame.

However, I'm glad we don't shut/block lanes every time there's a vehicle on the hard shoulder. My daily commute around the M25 to Heathrow would probably end up taking 3 weeks!