Fill Flash - how to achieve it????

I've been reading through the stickies (Curtis is awesome), but I'm still not sure of the answer to my particular question.

With the original 580 speedlite (not the newer II) and the 30 D, will the camera automatically know you're after a fill flash, OR, must one dial in the -1 FEC setting to achieve fill flash??

I know I must be missing something from my readings, but for the life of me, I can't seem to grasp this. I've done alittle flash with manual exposure, and I understand that the background is controlled by the aperture-shutter combination you select from the manual controls, and the foreground is controlled by the flash. What I can't understand is whether or not the camera knows you want fill-flash to begin with, or if you must dial in the -1 setting on FEC.

Another related question: to fool the camera into thinking you want fill-flash, should the background (manipulated by the manual controls) be metered to the right of center (slightly over), or to the left of center (slightly under), to achieve fill-flash automatically without setting FEC??

Last question - when you want a shallow DOF with blurred background and achieve that in manual setting, will using a flash override that and give you a deeper depth of field then you wanted?

Thanks!!!

pigtailpat wrote in post #3517504
I've been reading through the stickies (Curtis is awesome), but I'm still not sure of the answer to my particular question.

With the original 580 speedlite (not the newer II) and the 30 D, will the camera automatically know you're after a fill flash, OR, must one dial in the -1 FEC setting to achieve fill flash??

I know I must be missing something from my readings, but for the life of me, I can't seem to grasp this. I've done alittle flash with manual exposure, and I understand that the background is controlled by the aperture-shutter combination you select from the manual controls, and the foreground is controlled by the flash. What I can't understand is whether or not the camera knows you want fill-flash to begin with, or if you must dial in the -1 setting on FEC.

Another related question: to fool the camera into thinking you want fill-flash, should the background (manipulated by the manual controls) be metered to the right of center (slightly over), or to the left of center (slightly under), to achieve fill-flash automatically without setting FEC??

Last question - when you want a shallow DOF with blurred background and achieve that in manual setting, will using a flash override that and give you a deeper depth of field then you wanted?

Thanks!!!

Try this: Put your camera on Av or Tv. That will let you select the aperture (Av), or shutterspeed (Tv) and the camera will pick the other control. Put the flash in the hotshoe and go outside and shoot. The results will be very very good. If the fill looks hot dial it down somewhat, or increase it if you want a bit more. I find that it works just fine in neutral.

I suggest Av or Tv rather than Manual as the manual exposure will jump all over the place and you will be very busy trying to centre the needle. If you choose Av you do need to make sure that your shutterspeed doesn't drop below a safe handholding speed and it easily could. You could choose Tv and that would allow you to select a specific shutterspeed and that will help control the brightness of the background. With Av (aperture preferred)you choose your depth of field, so pick your poison!

I think (but I'm not sure) that when the camera sees that you are using a flash and that the shutterspeed/aperture you've chosen is the correct ambient light exposure (or at least very close) then the camera will not let the flash overexpose. I am sure that I shot an outdoor wedding on Saturday, had the FEC on Zero, just shot, and had everything turn out very well. Once again I'd urge you to not over think this, but to just get out and try it.

If you want a shallow depth of field, use Av and select a wide aperture. Just be aware that your camera's fastest conventional flash sync speed is 1/250 and you can't exceed this. If the ambient light exposure is 1/500 @ f11 + 2/3's (the sunny 16 rule if you are using ISO 400) then 1/250 is going to make you choose f16 & 2/3's! You can choose a slower ISO and that will help, and of course you can go into the shade. But in broad daylight it will be difficult to get to f2.8 AND use flash.

Just because you want to doesn't mean that it's always possible. Many pros who want that shallow depth of field or just subject stopping shutterspeeds will take a different tack. They won't use flash at all but will use reflectors. Have a look at some of the Sports Illustrated "how we did it" bathing suit videos and you'll often see huge reflectors. The trick is that the shooter gets to use shutterspeeds like 1/2000 of a second AND have fill, which is created by the reflector not a flash.

There is one other option and that's using your camera's high speed sync. When you do choose this you can use a very high shutterspeed, beyond the normal flash sync. What happens is that the flash pops multiple times in micro seconds. Without explaining why this is important, just trust me that it is. The problem is that your flash has one power storage device, its capacitor, and it will have to portion out little bits of energy to power all of those micro pops. Subsequently the flash is much weaker. The other problem is that those multiple pops are very hard on the flash. The generate a lot of heat, so if you do use this feature give the flash some time to cool down after a couple of shots.

Dave has done a thorough job with this. Here are a few more thoughts.

1) When you're just learning outdoor fill flash, start in Tv mode at 1/250 and ISO 100. This will give you the widest possible aperture and greatest flash range. You should get a workable aperture in sunny or partly cloudy conditions. If it's really overcast, slow down the shutter and/or increase the ISO a little to get the aperture where you want.

2) Make sure custom function 14 on your 30D is set to 0 (Evaluative E-TTL).

3) For those situations where you want a wide aperture to blur the background, enable high speed sync on the flash, use Av mode, and pick your aperture. Keep an eye on the distance scale since this will reduce your range.

I would probably do the same, as long as there was a white wedding gown in the frame. E-TTL seems to be afraid of white stuff and compensates accordingly. Without something white on your subject, you may want some -FEC. There is no right or wrong FEC setting, but I agree with Dave - I usually start at 0 and adjust from there.

Take it one step at a time and try to keep the thought process simple. As long as your shutter speed is 1/250 or slower, about all you need to think about is use EC to adjust the background exposure and use FEC to adjust subject exposure.

Just as a quick response to Curtis's comment about high speed sync: is it true that high speed sync, if enabled all the time, only kicks in when the flash sync speed is exceeded?

Curtis & Dave -

Thank you both! Really appreciate the advice. Just a couple of questions:

(1) In AV mode, when I'm shooting sports (no flash), I usually have to up the EC to expose a little to the right to get the exposure I want, with the flash on, would I still want to expose a little to the right - when using AV mode? (I'm aware that the AV mode would be controlling the background exposure)

(2) Is it ever possible to get a blurred background in manual mode? If I set it to the widest aperture I can get with the lens being used, enable high speed sync mode on the flash, and make sure my shutter is fast enough to expose properly without camera shake - - it I take all those precautions - - could I also achieve a blurred background with manual exposure and flash?? Did you suggest AV mode because it would be "safer" because it will give me a "safe" shutter speed?

I ask question 2 because from all my reading here - there is so much emphasis on using manual exposure when using a flash.

Thanks!

canoflan wrote in post #3518260
is it true that high speed sync, if enabled all the time, only kicks in when the flash sync speed is exceeded?

True.

pigtailpat wrote in post #3518306
(1) In AV mode, when I'm shooting sports (no flash), I usually have to up the EC to expose a little to the right to get the exposure I want, with the flash on, would I still want to expose a little to the right - when using AV mode? (I'm aware that the AV mode would be controlling the background exposure)

This is an artistic decision on your part. Without flash, you may sometimes need to overexpose the sky/background to get good exposure on faces. It all depends on the light. With flash, you should be able to expose the background less, while lighting up your subjects with flash. There's no right or wrong.

You can do anything in manual mode that you can do in Av or Tv. You just can't do it as quickly. The decision is yours, based on how much control you want, how much time you have, and what you're comfortable with. Keep in mind that Manual mode is often recommended for indoor flash when flash is the main light source. Outdoors, the thought process is different.

Curtis N wrote in post #3518360
Keep in mind that Manual mode is often recommended for indoor flash when flash is the main light source. Outdoors, the thought process is different.

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!! Well thanks! This cleared up EVERYTHING for me.

Have a great day!!

pigtailpat wrote in post #3518306
Is it ever possible to get a blurred background in manual mode?

Assuming you aren't talking about blur caused by motion of the camera or subject, then what you're asking about is an out of focus background caused by limited Depth Of Field.

There are several things that control DOF. The four factors that are easiest to control while shooting are the distance from camera to the subject (shorter distance = shallower DOF), distance from the subject to the background (more seperation from the subject will make the background less in-focus) and the focal length - longer focal lengths have shallower DOF's. Finally there is aperture. Larger apertures (smaller f-stop numbers) will create shallower DOF. The aperture is something you'll have direct control over in Manual mode. You'll have to balance with other factors of course to get the exposure you want but Manual mode (along with Av Mode) will give you the most control over this.

Steve

Hood or no hood when fill flashing? Shooting with 24-70 and ew-83f hood

I have had a very similar question but indoors instead.

I'm trying to set up a portrait indoors, with the family sitting in front of the fireplace. Since the fire is back-lighting the shot, the flash isn't firing correctly (if at all) to fill the foreground. It is fairly low-level light but the fire in the background is throwing the light metering off so the foreground is either over-exposed or the flash doesn't fire and it's way under-exposed.

BTW this is with a XTi, EFS 17-85 lens and a 580II flash. And yes, I am a total NOOB and trying to learn.

RMC_SS_LDO
this might sound silly to everyone (my attempt at advice...).
1. switch the flash off.
2. use 'M' mode. set up the aperture you want to use.
3. zoom in, or walk up to and focus on the face of someone you are taking the picture of.
4. look at what your exposre meter is telling you - in other words, the required shutter speed right now (without FLASH - remember you switched it off).
now, this reading, let's pretend is 30th/sec.
for an ambient light you could actually speed this shutter value by another 2 stops (so, instead of 1/30th, you could use 1/50th or faster)

Now go back to your starting position, switch on the flash, set your shutter speed to the one you got in step 4 and then make it (the shutter speed) two stops faster.
conmpose your picture/focus etc, without changing the shutter speed or aperture.
take the picture.

did you try to

allergyking wrote in post #4290556
Hood or no hood when fill flashing? Shooting with 24-70 and ew-83f hood

I ALWAYS use a lens hood. It might not help anything but then again it might. Why take a chance?

Buy a Nikon.

DaveG wrote in post #4291571
I ALWAYS use a lens hood. It might not help anything but then again it might. Why take a chance?

I always use a lens hood, too. It's one of the most useful piece of equipment you own. It isn't necessary in all cases, but it never, ever hurts anything and there is no sense looking around for it when you do need it.

RMC,

It could be you're in one of those situations that E-TTL doesn't work well. A sample shot would help. Here's a couple options:

1) Use flash exposure lock, aiming the center of the viewfinder at a reasonably neutral color at the subject's distance when you press the * button.

2) Use manual flash, adjusting the power based on the distance scale on the back of the flash unit. Some trial and error might be involved.