Highly Noisy Images from a710

Hi Guys,

I've got a new Canon a710 for myself...but almost all photos I'm getting are highly noisy. For a sample, take a look at this shot, I took in natural lighting, using Automatic Scene Mode Foilage (which is for nature)...check out the amount of noise which is being there when viewed full size

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ExposureTime : 1/60Sec
FNumber : F3.5
ExifVersion : 0220
DateTimeOriginal : 2007:07:16 05:36:17
DateTimeDigitized : 2007:07:16 05:36:17
ComponentConfiguration : YCbCr
CompressedBitsPerPixel : 5/1 (bit/pixel)
ShutterSpeedValue : 1/60Sec
ApertureValue : F3.5
ExposureBiasValue : EV0.0
MaxApertureValue : F3.5
MeteringMode : Division
Flash : Fired(Auto/red-eye)
FocalLength : 13.16(mm)
MakerNote : Canon Format : 2138Bytes (Offset:678)
UserComment : 
FlashPixVersion : 0100
ColorSpace : sRGB
ExifImageWidth : 3072
ExifImageHeight : 2304
ExifInteroperabilityOf​fset : 3080
FocalPlaneXResolution : 3072000/225
FocalPlaneYResolution : 2304000/169
FocalPlaneResolutionUn​it : Meter
SensingMethod : OneChipColorArea sensor
FileSource : DSC
CustomRendered : Normal process
ExposureMode : Auto
WhiteBalance : Manual
DigitalZoomRatio : 3072/3072
SceneCaptureType : Landscape
Vendor Original Information
MacroMode : Off
Self-timer : Off
Quality : Super-Fine
FlashMode : Red-Eye Reducing Auto
Drive Mode : Single-frame
Focus Mode : Single 
ImageSize : Large
Easy shooting mode : Unknown (18)
Digital Zoom : Off
Contrast : Normal
Saturation : Normal
Sharpness : Normal
CCD Sensitivity : AUTO
MeteringMode : Evaluative
FocusType : Auto
AF point selected  : Unknown (8197)
ExposureProgram : Easy shooting
Focal length of lens : 5.8-34.8(mm)
Long Shutter Mode : Off
White Balance : Auto
Sequence number(Continuous mode) : 0
Flash bias : 0 EV 

Noise is almost most visible in the shadow (darkest) areas of the picture, and your picture has quite a lot of dark tones in it (look at the histogram). How good - or otherwise - was the light? 1/60s at f/3.5 suggests it was far from good.

I don't know why you fired the flash - I doubt there was much in the way of foreground shadow to fill in, and it's given you terrible green eye (the animal equivalent of human red eye). It's possible that firing the flash has made the camera compromise over the ISO to use to keep the shutter speed within certain limits, and that will certainly contribute to the noise.


I have a feeling that the underlying problem here is that the light was far from good, so the camera has chosen a fairly high ISO. There is software that can read the ISO out of the metadata in modern Canon compact images - though Adobe Photoshop CS3 (which is what I've been using to play with your image) only looks in the standard location for it.

The relatively low proportion of the image that has the white duck feathers has fooled the camera's metering into overexposing by, I'd say, around half a stop - some of the white areas on the ducks are blown out. That will contribute to the noisiness of the image.

I think, too, you've been a victim of AiAF here; the camera has apparently focussed on the grass in the foreground. The detail in the middle region of the image is fairly poor, which, even allowing for the relatively large depth of field on a digital compact at large apertures, may well be down to foreground focus. That lack of sharpness will likely contribute to the sense that the image is very noisy. The camera is leaning and I don't think the auto white balance has worked that well on this image - again, when the image is flawed, you tend to notice the noise more.


I fixed what I could quickly in Photoshop; in Adobe Camera Raw 4 I moved Temperature -19, Tint +5, Exposure -0.50 and straightened the image using the vertical of the bench in the background left as a reference. According to Noise Ninja, the resulting image has a little over half the noise of the original that you posted (the Noise Index drops from 63 to 38). That will be almost entirely from fixing the overexposure.


I'd go somewhere in good light, turn the flash off and take a picture with a good range of tones (look at the histogram; the histogram on the image you posted is almost all in the lower half of the tonal range, which is why the camera overexposed the image as it tries to get the average exposure in the middle, albeit with the Evaluative rules stopping it being too vicious). Does that picture look noisy too?

David

hmm...well the light was fairly good, from what I can recall, used flash since there was one duck was lurking in shadow of the bush...
Yes, processing make the images much better, but the prob. here, is most of the images taken had excessive noise, so I was concerned...

Well anyways, I tried to follow the test you've suggested, though not used complete manual mode...I donnno the images in complete manual mode are turning out to be very dark
The result looks better...guess camera's fine, its my photography skill which needs tweaking ...tell me what you think..

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Hi TheMafioso vbmenu_register("postm​enu_3565237", true); .

I've got the same camera and have not noticed too many problems with noise...except at the higher ISO levels - 400 and 800. I've shot at 200 in very low indoor light and it wasn't too bad!

I don't think you have specified your ISO level on the first shot so can't comment too much on that.

The auto setting is ok for most shots but try using Av (Aperture Priority) and Tv (Shutter Priority) mode and playing around with that before even experimenting with full Manual mode!

If you're like me (newbie to photography) messing about with Av and Tv will be give you a lot of insight into what settings are best and then you may be in a position to go full manual.

Once you start experimenting and you'll really enjoy yourself and find that it's a pretty good camera.

Check out this picture done by some-one else using an A710is in very low light - it has not been edited, except for making the colour stand out a bit more - no special lighting used (I know because I asked her!!!): -

http://www.flickr.com …in/set-72157600094616002/

She's given me a lot of confidence - hope she does the same for you.

If you want - just seach in www.flickr.com for "A710" or "A710is" and it will give loads of pix that others have acheived - I'm sure that will reassure you a bit more!

I wouldn't worry about M mode at this stage - Av mode is often the best compromise between control and automation. It's where my DSLR spends most of its time, though I do make a fair bit of use of M mode.

Av mode gives you control over the aperture, whilst letting the camera choose the shutter speed automatically according to its metering. I don't ever bother with the 'icon' modes; I can never remember what trade offs they're making, and I'd rather make the trade offs involved in choosing an ISO, shutter speed, aperture and what flash setup, if any, to use myself, based on my knowledge of my camera, lenses, flash gear and the situation I'm in.


There is no substitute for learning your camera, and that takes time. There's no shame in asking for help to interpret what is going on - indeed, it's a really good way to learn. Don't be embarrassed - instead, try to treat the situation you're now in as a wonderful learning opportunity. Take lots of photos, look at them critically, decide what is good and what is not so good about them, and apply what you've learned to taking more photos. Your A710 is a capable camera - albeit with limitations like any camera - and if you keep learning, you'll soon get good results.


You have to be careful of 'pixel peeping' - you will spot flaws at 100% that don't affect the image when viewed or printed normally. As you say, the second image is much better, though it still looks like the focus is very much in the foreground, and the aperture is wide open. If you turn off AiAF and focus about a third of the way into the image, also drop the aperture a bit (which Av mode will allow you to do), you may well get a better result. There's scope for some more experimentation.


Incidentally, the wonderful PTLens gets the lens distortion out of this second image very easily. Distortion is a fact of life with all zoom lenses, especially at their extremes. It's a Windows only program, and you don't need Photoshop, as there's a standalone version included - it costs a mere US$15 to register, which includes free updates.


As for software that can read the strange location that Canon put ISO information on modern compacts, I'm afraid that I don't know what to suggest - but I do know that such software exists. Why they don't use the standard location (as they do on DSLRs) beats me.

David

Hehe i used to AiAf 'coz you gotta be careful and quick when taking photos of these damn monkey's, take too much time and it will run away with your camera

Yeah I guess I need to tinker quite a lot, before I start taking good photos....the earlier digicam I had was a Nikon, fully automatic one, which didn't require any settings except for scene selection, so you can very much say..I'm a newbie...
Thanks for suggestions and that's a wonderful album Pridash, ..and thanx once again david for takin time

I'll play around more, and post the results
and David if you find the software which tells the ISO, do let me know, I 've searched quite a bit for that..

Hi. Sorry you might have missed the section in my post...the ISO info is always available if you install the Zoom Browser software you got with the camera! It will also display the histogram and all adjustments you've made when taking the shot.

Apologies in advance if I've the wrong end of the stick and this is not what you're actually looking for!

BTW if you want a live histogram, you'll need to install the CHDK "firmware" found here:-

http://scratchpad.wiki​a.com/wiki/CHDK

haven't done it myself

...yet!!!

Actually never bothered to check out the Canon disk, now I gotta find it, where I'd put it

Yeah ive heard of CHDK before, but hadn't had the guts to put it, maybe i'll try it after few days...BTW any chances of screwing up camera with this, or hav u heard anyone screwing up the cam with it...wanted to know 'coz my camera is without warranty..

Thanx anyways,
Regards,

TheMafioso wrote in post #3566779
Actually never bothered to check out the Canon disk, now I gotta find it, where I'd put it

Yeah ive heard of CHDK before, but hadn't had the guts to put it, maybe i'll try it after few days...BTW any chances of screwing up camera with this, or hav u heard anyone screwing up the cam with it...wanted to know 'coz my camera is without warranty..

Thanx anyways,
Regards,

Hi. Well if you're out of warranty then you've got nothing to lose!

Apparentely, it's not actually "firmware" because it's not "firmly" installed - it's supposed to uninstall as soon as you turn off the camera/take our batteries (can't remember which one) so it doesn't overwrite the original firmware on the cam - so you should be ok (just google CHDK and you should find loads of people who will say the same sort of thing)...but I read that this is a grey area with Canon! My camera's only a 1 month old so don't feel like taking the chance...yet! But I'm sure I will in the future. But as mentioned earlier, if you haven't got the warranty then this shouldn't matter!

If you can't find the original software for the Zoom Browser you can download it free at loads of places, e.g.,

http://www.photo-freeware.net/

You'll find loads of other software here as well...such as GIMP and Paint.net (for those of us who can't afford Photoshop!!!) - I need to get to grips with it when I find some free time...sorry a lot of free time!!!...but saying that at the mo I'm getting by fine using Picasa and the Zoombrowser software - trying to improve my photography skills first before I move on to editing!

pridash wrote in post #3567432
Hi. Well if you're out of warranty then you've got nothing to lose!

Apparentely, it's not actually "firmware" because it's not "firmly" installed - it's supposed to uninstall as soon as you turn off the camera/take our batteries (can't remember which one) so it doesn't overwrite the original firmware on the cam - so you should be ok (just google CHDK and you should find loads of people who will say the same sort of thing)...but I read that this is a grey area with Canon! My camera's only a 1 month old so don't feel like taking the chance...yet! But I'm sure I will in the future. But as mentioned earlier, if you haven't got the warranty then this shouldn't matter!

If you can't find the original software for the Zoom Browser you can download it free at loads of places, e.g.,

http://www.photo-freeware.net/

You'll find loads of other software here as well...such as GIMP and Paint.net (for those of us who can't afford Photoshop!!!) - I need to get to grips with it when I find some free time...sorry a lot of free time!!!...but saying that at the mo I'm getting by fine using Picasa and the Zoombrowser software - trying to improve my photography skills first before I move on to editing!

Hey, its out of warranty, then I got everything to lose...ie the camera, lol
You can try it, and still try your luck with Canon if something screws up, especially since its not permanent .....anyways I'll definately give it go in some time..

Yes, I have Zoom Browser, it does show ISO, thanx , but too bad Canon didn't include what ISO was actually used by camera when mode was set to auto...

TheMafioso wrote in post #3567947
Hey, its out of warranty, then I got everything to lose...ie the camera, lol
You can try it, and still try your luck with Canon if something screws up, especially since its not permanent .....anyways I'll definately give it go in some time..

Yes, I have Zoom Browser, it does show ISO, thanx , but too bad Canon didn't include what ISO was actually used by camera when mode was set to auto...

Yep...ok...I get your point!

When I do try it I'll post my findings!!!

BTW...didn't know Zoombrowser doesn't display ISO when on Auto setting - thanks for the info.

Anyway, enjoy yourself using the camera and getting creative! Look forward to seeing some of your pix in the future!!!

TheMafioso wrote in post #3565237
hmm...well the light was fairly good, from what I can recall, used flash since there was one duck was lurking in shadow of the bush...

Your flash only works up to about 4 metres (some 15 ft.) MAX.

It seems you used iso 200 or 400. You can fix the ISO in manual mode. Keep it at or below 200.

It's Canon's ImageBrowser / ZoomBrowser, and it comes with your camera on the same CD as Photostitch and the like.
BTW just like the absence of a battery meter, the lack of proper ISO recording to EXIF is a (intended?) design flaw in recent canon compacts. I have no idea who at Canon thought those were good ideas.

Marsellus_Wallace wrote in post #3574545
Your flash only works up to about 4 metres (some 15 ft.) MAX.

Didn't occour to me...but come to think of it now, it was pretty silly ..Thanx for the tip

Marsellus_Wallace wrote in post #3574545
It's Canon's ImageBrowser / ZoomBrowser, and it comes with your camera on the same CD as Photostitch and the like.
BTW just like the absence of a battery meter, the lack of proper ISO recording to EXIF is a (intended?) design flaw in recent canon compacts. I have no idea who at Canon thought those were good ideas.

Hehe...yeah I too wonder whose that bright fellow who comes up with such ideas

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Just having a quick look at the first photo, the light must not have been very good. What your eye sees as good can be a lot less than what a camera thinks is good. By using an auto setting(landscape)the camera pumped up the ISO to allow for an aperture that would yield a good DOF.
I would start using P mode a lot more setting the ISO for no more than 200, that will keep the grain down. Start taking note of the settings the camera is using to get the results, then move on to AV or TV and M. That way you are in control and the camera won't turn up the ISO on you. Compacts are notorious for being very noisy above ISO200.

I've noticed in most of the images, I click with this camera, if I use flash the images turn out to be terribly noisy, even if I force the ISO to be 80 weather it be indoor w/ poor light or outdoors...

BTW guys is there any freely available good guide for photography using a710 ... I'm having a hard time following all these new manual settings...please let me know..