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Thread started 21 Jul 2007 (Saturday) 16:26
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My Osprey 100% Crops from last weekend - C&C - WHat am I doing wrong?

 
Lone ­ Wolf ­ 75
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Jul 21, 2007 23:14 |  #16

stevefossimages wrote in post #3588615 (external link)
Paul, certainly go ahead with the beer can test to reassure yourself you've got a good copy.

There are a host of potential issues here, any one of which could compromise IQ.

1. You're just not close enough to get good IQ on these. In some, the bird is underexposed, which opens it up to digital noise that becomes easy to see when cropped tightly. In all but No. 2, the bird takes up too small a portion of the frame for crops as tight as you originally posted. Simple answer is: Get closer.

2. I also recommend leaving your iso up at 400 until you've become experienced at BIF shots. Until you've really gotten the hang of it, the more shutter speed the better. Also, most copies of the 100-400L IS (I've shot four of them) are sharper stopped down to f8 than they are wide open. Stopping down and overexposing (overexposure using exposure compensationis a good idea for birds darker than the sky) will cost you two stops, another reason to bump iso to 400.

3. I extracted your exif data on shot No. 2, the most underexposed shot, and it said you used manual metering. I really don't recommend using manual until you're experienced at this type of photography. The image is at least a full stop underexposed (more likely two stops). Against a pale blue sky, simply selecting evaluative metering would have produced an osprey properly exposed. The whites would have been good, and the darks perhaps just a tad underexposed but not too badly.

4. I may have missed it, but which focus mode did you use? If you used one shot, it's quite possible the bird moved out of the focus plane between focus lock and tripping the shutter. And if it was al servo, it's possible, especially since most of these birds are so far away, that you were having trouble keeping the focus point on the bird. When shooting BIF, I generally select al servo and use the center focus point.

While high humidity can have an impact on IQ with supertelephoto focal lengths, these images don't look like that's the problem.

Good luck! :D

Steve - Thanks for the advice, I'll try what you have suggested.

1. So I need to be pretty close to these guys to get a clear, detailed shot. Gotcha.

2. Yeah, getting birds in flight is rather new to me, I just really started getting into trying to photograph the birds when my parents mentioned that they have Bald Eagles in this area, and I began to notice all of the Osprey, Herons, and other birds. It is quite addicting, but it is difficult. It's good to know that this is not something that is easy to pick up and requires some practice to get the hang of it.

3. So you're saying that I shouldn't shoot in M mode, and should try Av, set it to 8.0 and see what happens? I think that's my plan of attack.

4. I have the 20D set on AI Focus right now. I am using the center focus point. From what I gather on searching the forum, most people don't like AI Focus and I probably should be using AI Servo. Is that correct?


Paul
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Lone ­ Wolf ­ 75
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Jul 21, 2007 23:21 |  #17

Crypto wrote in post #3588647 (external link)
wow, some of those are far away. Are you sure you thats only a 100% crop?

I'm not sure what you mean. By cropping, I opened the original image in PS, cropped it so that it would fit into roughly an 800 pixel width, and then saved as a hq jpeg, uploaded to Photobucket, then linked to here.

Your images are still what I would consider a great deal sharper than mine. I'm really hoping that it's my lack of skill that is leading to my poor images because I can eventually overcome that.


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Jul 21, 2007 23:37 |  #18

Paul, I never use al focus because I just don't trust that the camera can figure out fast enough when the static subject starts moving. If you have decent light and iso400, f8 and evalutaive metering should see you through just fine, as long as you learn eventually to be ready to use exposure compensation as previously detailed.

BIF can DEFINITELY be addicting.

Not to hyjack the thread, but here's one from a couple years back with the 20D and 100-400L IS at 400mm and iso400, f8, evaluative metering, al servo with center focus point (cropped in slightly from each side). This was handheld from a boat. This bird fills only a little more of the frame than your osprey No. 2.

IMAGE NOT FOUND
HTTP response: 404 | MIME changed to 'image/gif' | Byte size: ZERO | PHOTOBUCKET ERROR IMAGE


Keep working at it and having fun. You've chosen the most demanding portion (BIF) of the most demanding subdiscipline (avian) of nature photography. You'll get there in time. Just don't beat up on yourself. And the learning you do along the way carries its own rewards. Heck, we're all learning, all the time.

And get that Morris CD. It's worth its weight in gold.

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Jul 21, 2007 23:58 as a reply to  @ Lone Wolf 75's post |  #19

Paul,

I feel for you man -- I have been dealing with some of the same issues and was getting frustrated because my shot came out dull looking and not as sharp as I thought that they ought to be.

I have been trying to address these problems by studying my results and then going back out with some corrections in mind to see if I could do better.

One of the first things that I noticed in your full frame pictures is there is a lot of haze in the sky due to pollution and high humidity -- unfortunately, a condition very common in the summer and nothing that you can do about it except hope for better weather and try shooting in the very early morning.

I agree with the others that your shots are probably outside the acceptable range to get sharp pictures. One thing that I did this afternoon that helped my picture quality was to carry along a Gretagmacbeth Gray Scale Card to shoot so that I could set up a profile for batch processing all of the pictures. I found that this resulted in much richer colors and allowed me to set ACR for the right exposure. I personally think that good exposure and color trumps sharp focus (within reason) and creates an illusion of a clear image.

Another suggestion on metering is to use either center weighted or partial metering because an osprey against a large clear blue sky will not come out properly exposed if you use evaluative metering. It would probably be a good idea to bracket several shots of small objects against the sky (if you don't have a bird handy to assist you) and then carefully examine the exposure to see if it is giving you what you want.

Hang in there. I believe that it just takes time to work out the kinks. I have been spending a lot of my time analyzing the results of my pictures and trying to find the cause of my problems. I also study the efforts of others who post pictures here to see what they do. Occasionally, I even take a picture that I don't mind letting others see -- not great, but just good enough to keep from being run out of town on a rail or told to go to the Nikon forums.


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Jul 22, 2007 00:50 |  #20

Two things I see at a glance,.
Images look underexposed, or at least too dark due to high contrast lighting..

Subject is very distant in "icky" lighting.

However, if all your images look like this, there may be a focus problem. Your shutter speeds seem high eno8ugh to rule out hand shake to some extent, especially if this is a consistent issue. You may have to get something looked at.


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Jul 22, 2007 01:08 |  #21

Well, Paul, you're sure getting a wide variety of advice. My advice is: TRY IT ALL! :D


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Lone ­ Wolf ­ 75
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Jul 22, 2007 09:42 as a reply to  @ stevefossimages's post |  #22

Wow! What a tremendous amount of advice and response! I just spent the past four hours standing on the pier trying a few different things mentioned here (mainly by Steve b/c I had not seen the other advice until now) when the Ospreys were close enough. I'm loading picts now-I'll let you all know how they turn out.

Thanks to everyone - I'll keep you posted and add some of my recent picts once uploaded.


Paul
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Jul 22, 2007 13:09 |  #23

Lone Wolf 75 wrote in post #3588833 (external link)
I'm not sure what you mean. By cropping, I opened the original image in PS, cropped it so that it would fit into roughly an 800 pixel width, and then saved as a hq jpeg, uploaded to Photobucket, then linked to here.

Your images are still what I would consider a great deal sharper than mine. I'm really hoping that it's my lack of skill that is leading to my poor images because I can eventually overcome that.

ok, sounds like you have the 100% crop right. I agree, The second image posted was the only one I could find with an Osprey at 400mm. I have many other images at 400mm that are very sharp. However, they don't ALL turn out that way. I think this lens takes practice to get the images you are looking for. Keep at it.


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Jul 26, 2007 19:31 as a reply to  @ Crypto's post |  #24

Update: Well, I went out and tried to take more photos. Still a little disappointed, so I tried the lens test as Reyno described. I posted the ISO 100 and 200 results here (for those that are interested):

http://75.126.234.18 …php?p=3615837#p​ost3615837 (external link)


Paul
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Jul 26, 2007 20:29 as a reply to  @ Lone Wolf 75's post |  #25

Ok, so I decided to share some of the better photos after taking all of your advice - I think some of these are sharper, but they still don't pop like everyone else's images, so I still have a lot to learn:

Looking Down-
Cropped:

IMAGE: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v206/Lone_Wolf_75/Ospreys-V2/243_4324C.jpg
Full Image:
IMAGE: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v206/Lone_Wolf_75/Ospreys-V2/243_4324F.jpg

Across the sky-
Cropped:
IMAGE: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v206/Lone_Wolf_75/Ospreys-V2/243_4338C.jpg
Full Image:
IMAGE: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v206/Lone_Wolf_75/Ospreys-V2/243_4338F.jpg

Diving-
Cropped:
IMAGE: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v206/Lone_Wolf_75/Ospreys-V2/244_4477c.jpg
Full Image:
IMAGE: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v206/Lone_Wolf_75/Ospreys-V2/244_4477F.jpg

Not an Osprey, but this Great Blue Heron was pretty sharp-
Cropped:
IMAGE: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v206/Lone_Wolf_75/Ospreys-V2/243_4342C.jpg
Full Image:
IMAGE: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v206/Lone_Wolf_75/Ospreys-V2/243_4342F.jpg

I still figure I should pick up that Morris CD book and keep at it. I checked out the website - at this point I can only dream that one day I may take a picture like that.

Paul
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Jul 26, 2007 21:08 |  #26

F/8 looked the sharpest in the beer can test. But I got to tell you, just from my experience, the bird was just too far away to expect really sharp images going by how much it fills the frame in the full images shots. Were you using a tripod?


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Lone ­ Wolf ­ 75
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Jul 26, 2007 22:09 |  #27

canonloader wrote in post #3616329 (external link)
F/8 looked the sharpest in the beer can test. But I got to tell you, just from my experience, the bird was just too far away to expect really sharp images going by how much it fills the frame in the full images shots. Were you using a tripod?

Canonloader - I used a tripod for the beer can test. All the bird photos were handheld. Unfortunately, I couldn't get really close last weekend because the tide was really low due to the half moon, and I was therefore limited to the pier because it was too shallow to get the boat out. Maybe I'll have better luck this weekend if I go down there.


Paul
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Jul 26, 2007 22:39 |  #28

Lone Wolf 75 wrote in post #3616144 (external link)
QUOTED IMAGE

Dood! that's sweet!


Still, optics look poor.. I'm nervous for you, you ave the skills as evidenced above, yet something is making this not work out.


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Jul 27, 2007 12:00 |  #29

Steve Foss, great right up. Its great you took the time to analize the photo and the time to write such a detailed write up. Thats awesome.

-Adam




  
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Lone ­ Wolf ­ 75
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Jul 27, 2007 13:22 |  #30

CyberDyneSystems wrote in post #3616793 (external link)
Dood! that's sweet!


Still, optics look poor.. I'm nervous for you, you ave the skills as evidenced above, yet something is making this not work out.

I also still think something is amiss here - I guess I'll keep at it. Hopefully it is something simple that is easily corrected.

SlipNslide281 wrote in post #3619739 (external link)
Steve Foss, great right up. Its great you took the time to analize the photo and the time to write such a detailed write up. Thats awesome.

-Adam

I agree. I love this forum. I couldn't have asked for a better response or advice. You all are awesome.

I guess I'll retry the sharpness test and try to photograph these guys again on Sunday.


Paul
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My Osprey 100% Crops from last weekend - C&C - WHat am I doing wrong?
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