Going past 1:1 with maintained working distance?

Hi guys I have a few questions about macrolenses and their accessories.

I have read a lot about macrophotography for a couple of days now but I seem to find very contradicting info.

I´m interested in buying a Tokina or Tamron ~100mm 1:1 macro, they have around 10cm "working distance".

On an ASP-C size sensor what will the actual magninfication ratio be?

How will the working distance be affected by adding lets say ~70mm extension tubes? And what will the (approx) magninfication ratio be with these added?

What happens when adding a 2X Teleconverter with working distance and magnification ratio?

TC + tubes?

What I want to know is this: is it possible to get 3:1 ratio and maintaining the ~10cm working distance (or close to that)? What would you recommend?

Almost forgot.. Poor mans macro..

Lets say you have a 50mm lens with a working distance of 40cm and magninfication ratio of 1:5 (I made these figures up). When adding 50mm extension tubes will I all the sudden get 1:1 magninfication ratio (this is what I´ve read) or will I get half of that 1:5? What happens to working distance?

A lot of questions, most are probably stupid, but as I said I spent days now trying to figure out what really happens with no really good answers.

Rogert wrote in post #3796582
Hi guys I have a few questions about macrolenses and their accessories.

I have read a lot about macrophotography for a couple of days now but I seem to find very contradicting info.

I´m interested in buying a Tokina or Tamron ~100mm 1:1 macro, they have around 10cm "working distance".

On an ASP-C size sensor what will the actual magninfication ratio be?

How will the working distance be affected by adding lets say ~70mm extension tubes? And what will the (approx) magninfication ratio be with these added?

What happens when adding a 2X Teleconverter with working distance and magnification ratio?

TC + tubes?

What I want to know is this: is it possible to get 3:1 ratio and maintaining the ~10cm working distance (or close to that)? What would you recommend?

Almost forgot.. Poor mans macro..

Lets say you have a 50mm lens with a working distance of 40cm and magninfication ratio of 1:5 (I made these figures up). When adding 50mm extension tubes will I all the sudden get 1:1 magninfication ratio (this is what I´ve read) or will I get half of that 1:5? What happens to working distance?

A lot of questions, most are probably stupid, but as I said I spent days now trying to figure out what really happens with no really good answers.

Some answers.
1.
A 1:1 macro lens is a 1:1 macro lens no matter what the sensor size as it's the ratio of subject size to image size on the sensor. So at 1:1, 5mm of subject will produce 5mm of image in the sensor. What does change though is the print magnification, a 6*4 print from a 1.6 crop camera at 1:1 will be more magnified that the same 6*4 print from a FF camera.

2.
Adding a full set of ext tubes to a macro lens around 100mm will give you 2:1 magnification max and approx half the working distance in front of the lens.

3. Adding a 2*TC will give you either 2:1 magnification at the original working distance (ie 10cms) or 1:1 at approx twice the working distance. But you will get some loss of IQ.

4.Using a combo of a 2* TC and a full set of ext tubes with the lens not a min focus would get you 3:1 at approx 7cms focus distance from the front of the lens. You would have to use a combo of a 1.4*TC and a 2*TC to get approx 3:1 at the same working distance but the image quality would suffer.

5. Adding 50mm of ext tubes to a normal 50mm lens will give you 1:1 magnification with the focus point about 5cms infornt of the 50mm lens.

The focus distances I've mentioned are all in front of the lens and are guesses from experience rather than worked out from formulae. The magnification ratios however will be fairly accurate.

Brian V.

Thanks Brian for your quick reply.

How much will IQ suffer from using a 1,4x TC? Barely noticable or quite a lot?

Rogert wrote in post #3798124
Thanks Brian for your quick reply.

How much will IQ suffer from using a 1,4x TC? Barely noticable or quite a lot?

Fraid the answer depends. I tend to shoot at fairly high detail level (fairly open apertures) and have noticed the difference but if you shoot at small apertures (smaller than say F13 ) to get good DOF then you may not see too much difference because the detail will already have been softened due to diffraction.

Brian V.

Wouldn't a 1:1 macro from a 35mm format lens give a greater apparent magnification on a cropped format sensor?
Oh hang on, a 23mm subject would appear to fill the frame on a 23mm sensor. Dur...

What about full set of extension tubes and lets say a 20mm or 30mm lens, I understand the mangnification ratio will be high but what about working distance? Are we talking mm then and not cm? And if you only use 20 or 30mm tubes, will the woking disatance be unusable?

About 100mm macro and tubes+TC, will this give lower IQ than the canon 65mm 1-5x lens? How good is this lens really, I saw a test on some german site and it looked much better than all the other lenses tested (at least to my untrained eyes). How is that 1-5x magnification achieved?

Rogert wrote in post #3800963
What about full set of extension tubes and lets say a 20mm or 30mm lens, I understand the mangnification ratio will be high but what about working distance? Are we talking mm then and not cm? And if you only use 20 or 30mm tubes, will the woking disatance be unusable?

You can reach a point where the image is actually focused inside the lens...

Rogert wrote in post #3800963
About 100mm macro and tubes+TC, will this give lower IQ than the canon 65mm 1-5x lens? How good is this lens really, I saw a test on some german site and it looked much better than all the other lenses tested (at least to my untrained eyes). How is that 1-5x magnification achieved?

I've used both -I actually "cut my teeth" above life size on Canon's 100mm macro lens + a 12mm tube + 1.4TC. I switched to tubes and a 500D diopter before moving on to the MPE-65mm. I now only use the 100mm for closeup photography -if I'm at life size or higher then I want the MPE-65mm on my camera. The MPE is razor sharp at 1:1 and F16 -something I can't say for the 100mm macro. Above life size it's sharper than any combination of lenses and tubes / TC / diopter that I've used. This shot was taken at 3x and F16 -there is some diffraction, but it's not too bad:

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So would I be able to get those detailed images i seek if I switched from the 100 macro and tubes to say the MPE-65?

I'm really interested in getting much better at this and I understand it takes alot of shots and practice but also one must have the proper equipment as well.

Gliderparentntn wrote in post #3806864
So would I be able to get those detailed images i seek if I switched from the 100 macro and tubes to say the MPE-65?

I'm really interested in getting much better at this and I understand it takes alot of shots and practice but also one must have the proper equipment as well.

You should use that 100mm macro with tubes, a TC or a diopter, and get use to shooting above life size before you get the MPE-65...

One thing is sure at least, the MPE-65mm is a very impressive lens.

Rogert wrote in post #3806939
One thing is sure at least, the MPE-65mm is a very impressive lens.

Some excellent glass...

Dalantech wrote in post #3806910
You should use that 100mm macro with tubes, a TC or a diopter, and get use to shooting above life size before you get the MPE-65...

Thanks I have the Kenko 1.4 TC and I hadn't thought of using in series with the Tubes. Which of these do I attach to the camera first if using the TC and tubes?

Gliderparentntn wrote in post #3807061
Thanks I have the Kenko 1.4 TC and I hadn't thought of using in series with the Tubes. Which of these do I attach to the camera first if using the TC and tubes?

My mentor, Mark Plonsky, recommends connecting the TC to the camera and then the tubes and the lens -you'll get better image quality.

Again Thanks I also read your site on macro technique shots good read.

Gliderparentntn wrote in post #3807197
Again Thanks I also read your site on macro technique shots good read.

Lots of info on my blog -up next is a tutorial on shooting bees...