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Thread started 10 Sep 2007 (Monday) 21:01
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cleaned sensor, and I SCRATCHED SENSOR!!!

 
I ­ Simonius
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Sep 11, 2007 11:53 |  #46

SkipD wrote in post #3907468 (external link)
Is your 5D an early copy?

My understanding is that the coating on the sensor's filter (the surface we clean dust off of) was defective in the early 5D's and that Eclipse fluid could actually strip the coating off the filter.

more essential info excellent - but do you have any idea what the body numbers qwere of the faulty ones?


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I ­ Simonius
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Sep 11, 2007 11:55 |  #47

dou_b_14 wrote in post #3907554 (external link)
WHO KNOWS WHAT COULDVE CAUSED THE SCRATCH. COULDVE BEEN AN ACT OF GOD:D. lol infact my mother said it was, she said "god punished you for not going to church"!!!!! lol, mother knows best.;)

ahh , we're supposed to clean the snsor in church! - that explains where people go so wrong:lol:


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Clare624
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Sep 11, 2007 11:57 as a reply to  @ post 3905880 |  #48

I don't even know how to attach a picture successfully on this site...

But I successfully used the Copper Hill method to clean my sensor a couple of weeks ago. Nicholas was outstanding to deal with.

Good luck - I hope it turns out to me a smear or something that can be easily removed.

Clare


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dou_b_14
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Sep 11, 2007 12:07 |  #49

I Simonius wrote in post #3907804 (external link)
ahh , we're supposed to clean the snsor in church! - that explains where people go so wrong:lol:

hahahaha


Canon 5d w/grip / canon 7d/ canon G1X/ 24-70mm 2.8 L/ 17-40mm L/ 50mm 1.4/(2)580ex/ pw's (3) /st-e2/ (2)cp-e3 battery pack/ abr800/ vagabond 2/ calumet genesis 200w(2)/

  
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dou_b_14
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Sep 11, 2007 12:09 |  #50

thanks clare624


Canon 5d w/grip / canon 7d/ canon G1X/ 24-70mm 2.8 L/ 17-40mm L/ 50mm 1.4/(2)580ex/ pw's (3) /st-e2/ (2)cp-e3 battery pack/ abr800/ vagabond 2/ calumet genesis 200w(2)/

  
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amfoto1
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Sep 11, 2007 14:20 |  #51

Hi all,

First, I want to compliment Nicholas for being proactive, forthright and up front, for staying in touch with his customers and potential customers, and for providing useful and helpful information. Far too many companies just take the "screw the customer" tack these days, with little or no customer service or concern before, during or after the sale. Great PR to keep in touch like this, yes. But it also demonstrates a good, sensible and honest approach to doing business. Kudos!

Personally, I think this whole issue about sensor cleaning has gotten blown way out of proportion. Until someone comes up with some sort of real, anti-dust device it's something we simply need to learn to deal with, if we're going to be shooting photos with digital cameras. (Note: I'm personally pretty skeptical about the "dust shaker" vibrators now being built into some cameras. We'll see! Early reports aren't very encouraging.)

It's really no different from another thing we have all been doing from our first week as photographers: cleaning our lenses. Almost the same products and cleaning methods apply, as well as many of the same concerns and issues. Some lenses are pricier than our D-SLRs, plus their front and rear elements are more exposed to possible damage during use and when cleaning them.

In this case, I suspect and hope the OP just got some "goo", such as a stray kernel of mirror foam, onto the sensor filter. Perhaps that just dissolved and smeared when the cleaning solution was applied. If so, further cleaning or other cleaners might remove it effectively, no real harm done. But even if it's a real scratch on the filter, as regretable as that is, it's repairable and should serve to remind us how important it is to remove grit from the filter surface before attempting to clean it, and/or how critical it is to maintain really pristine cleaning materials and working station... No different from cleaning the front and back glass surfaces of my 300/2.8!

Overall, I think our cameras are more in danger from people unwittingly using cotton swabs in there or if they also try to clean the much more delicate surfaces of the mirror and focus screen. There are special cotton swabs available, but run of the mill Q-Tips are notorious for shedding tiny, tough fibers that can jam a shutter in a heartbeat. I couldn't even guess how many SLR mirrors I've seen ruined by improper cleaning. Cheap "lens tissues" are the biggest culprit, made from paper with wood pulp (and thus minerals) in it. These are also the source of "cleaning marks" on used lenses, fine scratches in the lens surface, or it's coatings.

With respect to the Canon 5D in particular, I hadn't heard of early copies having a problem. But, I do see in the Curt Fargo article (www.cleaningdigitalcam​eras.com (external link)) that they recommend *not* using original Eclipse (methanol) on some D-SLRs that have certain types of coatings on their AA filters or particular materials making up the sensors themselves. Curt states that they might be damaged by this particular cleaner (and presumably any other methanol-based cleaner). *Please note* that the Canon 5D and XTi/400D *are* on this list, along with all Sony D-SLRs and Pentax K10D.

Eclipse E2 was developed specifically for use with the Sony cameras and is used the same way as original Eclipse. (P.S. I've met Curt a few times and have long been a customer of his. He and his organization are all certified camera repair techs and part of a large network that exchange info about the profession. I consider his info reliable, just as the Copperhill info, products and recommendations have gone a notch higher in my opinion as a result of this thread.)

Also note in Curt's article that Canon's own cleaning method is described as using a "home brew" of 90% isopropyl alcohol or a 50/50 mix of isopropyl alcohol and Windex. (Which I find interestingly similar to an optical and mirror cleaning solution recommended by Thomas Tomosy, one of the legendary gurus of camera repair. Another lens cleaning solution I've often seen recommended, but haven't personally used and so can't really recommend: cheap vodka.)

I hope the original poster will keep us updated what the repair shop finds and recommends. One of the problems with the Internet is that issues are raised, getting a lot of attention and raising concerns, but the resolution is never shared. Keep us informed, please!


Alan Myers (external link) "Walk softly and carry a big lens."
5DII, 7DII, 7D, M5 & others. 10-22mm, Meike 12/2.8,Tokina 12-24/4, 20/2.8, EF-M 22/2, TS 24/3.5L, 24-70/2.8L, 28/1.8, 28-135 IS (x2), TS 45/2.8, 50/1.4, Sigma 56/1.4, Tamron 60/2.0, 70-200/4L IS, 70-200/2.8 IS, 85/1.8, Tamron 90/2.5, 100/2.8 USM, 100-400L II, 135/2L, 180/3.5L, 300/4L IS, 300/2.8L IS, 500/4L IS, EF 1.4X II, EF 2X II. Flashes, strobes & various access. - FLICKR (external link)

  
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dou_b_14
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Sep 11, 2007 14:34 |  #52

yup....i will let everyone know what happened


Canon 5d w/grip / canon 7d/ canon G1X/ 24-70mm 2.8 L/ 17-40mm L/ 50mm 1.4/(2)580ex/ pw's (3) /st-e2/ (2)cp-e3 battery pack/ abr800/ vagabond 2/ calumet genesis 200w(2)/

  
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joeseph
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Sep 11, 2007 15:58 |  #53

Desertraptor wrote in post #3905972 (external link)
$300 to replace the filter?
What the hell is it made of?
Can we purchase filters?
Can replacement be done our selves.

It's a piece of glass.

Please be aware it is NOT "just a piece of glass"

I never worked out if the filter is actually glass or not before mysteriously losing the one that Canon NZ replaced for me :rolleyes: (see my signature for details) but I did have it long enough to do some poking, prodding, scraping etc. and to show some of our local POTN'rs what it takes to scratch it.
The top surface on these filters is pretty easy to damage so while it may contain glass, the layer on top should be treated with respect. In my case I suspect changing lenses while shooting at a local beach allowed a bit of grit to find it's way in & the wet wipe with a Pec-Pad picked this grit up and worked it's merry havoc.

The warnings on the Copperhill site may well have prevented my particular issue if I had been using their product at the time and had read their instruction (I wasn't) Certainly I've been a fair bit more cautious since as I had been working on the misinformation that the filter was just plain glass and to be honest was far too casual about the whole process. Having said that, I don't hesitate to clean my sensor when it needs it now, and have shown a number of people how I now go about it.


some fairly old canon camera stuff, canon lenses, Manfrotto "thingy", and an M5, also an M6 that has had a 720nm filter bolted onto the sensor:
TF posting: here :-)

  
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amfoto1
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Sep 11, 2007 17:23 |  #54

Good grief Joseph!

Did you ever get to the bottom of why that happened or did Canon Service give you any feedback? It looks as if the surface coating of the AA filter softened and started to dissolve during the first cleaning, then was wiped off with the second swipe.


Alan Myers (external link) "Walk softly and carry a big lens."
5DII, 7DII, 7D, M5 & others. 10-22mm, Meike 12/2.8,Tokina 12-24/4, 20/2.8, EF-M 22/2, TS 24/3.5L, 24-70/2.8L, 28/1.8, 28-135 IS (x2), TS 45/2.8, 50/1.4, Sigma 56/1.4, Tamron 60/2.0, 70-200/4L IS, 70-200/2.8 IS, 85/1.8, Tamron 90/2.5, 100/2.8 USM, 100-400L II, 135/2L, 180/3.5L, 300/4L IS, 300/2.8L IS, 500/4L IS, EF 1.4X II, EF 2X II. Flashes, strobes & various access. - FLICKR (external link)

  
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Ron1004
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Sep 11, 2007 22:32 |  #55

I Simonius wrote in post #3906314 (external link)
but someonne just posted that tey scratche teir sensor with copperhill:cry:

I was responding to your comment:

I Simonius wrote in post #3906183 (external link)
I tried a blowr once and it made everything 100 times worse

What else do you use ?

Just to point out what my experience is, in answer to your question, and what I've learnt from this forum is the experience of many others.


i.e.

Most people use the blower first, and if that cant clear it they use good cleaning systems like 'Copper Hill'.

To date I have only used the blower.


EOS 350D + Kit 18-55 lens (looking to donate) , EOS 30D 18-270 Tamron (wife's), 7D MkII
EF-S 17-55 f2.8 IS USM, EF 70-200 f2.8 L IS USM, EF 28 f1.8 USM, EF-s 10-22,
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joeseph
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Sep 12, 2007 02:55 |  #56

amfoto1 wrote in post #3909789 (external link)
Good grief Joseph!

Did you ever get to the bottom of why that happened

I'm picking that I had sand or similar on the surface, and wasn't careful enough when cleaning. I had to do the clean while on holiday away from home, didn't have much light to see what was happening - basicly a recipie for trouble. Should have left it until I got home and could do it under better conditions. We live & learn... ;)


some fairly old canon camera stuff, canon lenses, Manfrotto "thingy", and an M5, also an M6 that has had a 720nm filter bolted onto the sensor:
TF posting: here :-)

  
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Sep 16, 2007 00:07 |  #57

amfoto1 wrote in post #3908708 (external link)
With respect to the Canon 5D in particular, I hadn't heard of early copies having a problem. But, I do see in the Curt Fargo article (www.cleaningdigitalcam​eras.com (external link)) that they recommend *not* using original Eclipse (methanol) on some D-SLRs that have certain types of coatings on their AA filters or particular materials making up the sensors themselves. Curt states that they might be damaged by this particular cleaner (and presumably any other methanol-based cleaner). *Please note* that the Canon 5D and XTi/400D *are* on this list, along with all Sony D-SLRs and Pentax K10D.

Amfoto: Some interesting observations in your post. I did notice your recommendation for using the E2 fluid for the 5D. According to the fluid mfr, Photographic Solutions, they have now revised their recommendation to use the original Eclipse fluid for the 5D. See HERE (external link).




  
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Glenn ­ NK
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Sep 16, 2007 00:39 |  #58

Perhaps I can clear up a few points:

1. The 5D sensor does not have a glass filter - it's an indium tin oxide coating.

2. Other models that I know of that also have this type of filter are the 400D (XTi) and the new 40D.

3. If the camera has the indium tin oxide coating, the filter cannot be replaced, and the entire sensor must be replaced - more costly than just replacing the filter on a 30D.

4. The 30D does have a glass filter over the sensor, and it can be removed and replaced.

The reason I know about point No.3 is that I currently have a 30D sensor filter sitting here on my desk and it has a scratch on it.:cry:

Some months ago, I decided to save some money (poor decision) and I used lens cleaning paper wrapped around a piece of plastic cut from an old credit card. Initially I had used a piece of clean cardboard, but wanted to go hi-tech with the plastic.;)

Apparently on one of my swipes, the plastic may have cut through the lens paper and scratched the filter. Or perhaps a bit of grit was on the surface and I ground it in; don't really know.

I had several options; use it as is, send it to Canon for replacement of the filter, or have it done locally. The first option was ruled out because the scratch kept showing up in places where cloning was impossible. The second option would have meant shipping the camera, waiting in line for Canon to fix it (apparently several weeks), and waiting for the return shipment. I opted for the third; the local shop ordered the part, and when it came in, they had the camera for a mere 24 hours and it was fixed.

There might be some lessons here:

1. Stuff happens - I thought I was being careful and I was, but dust is essentially not visible to the naked eye - at least not my eyes (this could be the problem). I noticed when I first took the camera in, that the repair tech used a loupe - good idea.

2. Use good materials - don't try to save a few dollars (I have over eight grand in gear and accessories - saving $20 is stupid).

3. Use extreme caution.

4. In accordance with the gentleman from Copperhill, I always use compressed gas. But I follow the directions carefully. DO NOT SHAKE THE CAN - in fact I don't even move the can from my desk - I move the camera into position to the nozzle. Use short blasts, and carefully monitor the temperature of the can - if it gets cool and it will - wait a few minutes for it to warm up.

5. Don't skimp on swabs - yes they can be expensive, but my repair bill was in the order of $250.

6. Above all, use common sense - unfortunately not everyone is endowed with the same amount. I have more now.;)

In closing, I have also used high quality cotton Q-tips with success, but the fuzz they sometimes leave behind becomes "sensor dust". Again, with common sense, care and brainwork, these could be safe in the right hands. Or just annoying, it all depends on execution.


When did voluptuous become voluminous?

  
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I ­ Simonius
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Sep 16, 2007 03:35 |  #59

EORI wrote in post #3938926 (external link)
Amfoto: Some interesting observations in your post. I did notice your recommendation for using the E2 fluid for the 5D. According to the fluid mfr, Photographic Solutions, they have now revised their recommendation to use the original Eclipse fluid for the 5D. See HERE (external link).

Thanks for this , it now says the 5D needs (or is) type 3!
(or have I misunderstood???? Is it type 3 sensor rather than neededing type 3 )

"Canon EOS 5D 3 Eclipse N CMOS"

DOH! that's te sensor swab number - eugh - Im over tired!


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I ­ Simonius
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Sep 16, 2007 03:40 |  #60

EORI wrote in post #3938926 (external link)
Amfoto: Some interesting observations in your post. I did notice your recommendation for using the E2 fluid for the 5D. According to the fluid mfr, Photographic Solutions, they have now revised their recommendation to use the original Eclipse fluid for the 5D. See HERE (external link).

Im confused ( as usual) if the 5D is Tin Oxide, why do they (Photosol's)not recommend using E2, which is for Tin Oxide sensors?

conflicting info here (external link): "Eclipse E2™ - Eclipse E2™ is the chemical formulation from Sony for cleaning the sensors of their Alpha series of cameras as they now have Tin Oxide Sensors. Other cameras with Tin Oxide Sensors include the Canon XTi/400D and 5D along with the Pentax K10D and it is recommended that you use the E2 on these also,"


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cleaned sensor, and I SCRATCHED SENSOR!!!
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