Refurbs and BH Photo - Exception to the rule, or is it?

In March of this year, I decided to upgrade to a 1D Series.

With the Mk III not out yet, and leery of hitches and so forth, I studied at the MkII and MkIIN.

BH Had two Mk IIs, one Refurbished, and the other New. The Refurbished was about $500 less than the New camera, but still over $2600.

So I went ahead with the Refurb, and used the extra money for a UWA lens.

When the camera got to my hands, I found a bit strange that the device had a tad over 4k actuations. Little high for a Refurb (a 14 day return customer who does not want it, and it goes back to Canon for a cleaning, and then back to BH Photo).

About a week ago, the focusing screen went out. So I decided to send it in for Repair. Canon accepted it, and I contacted them today. As they tell me, this is a camera on its THIRD Visit to the Repair Service Center for Canon.

How could that be with a refurbished model? One of the times was a routine cleaning, but the other one was a Standard Repair. (Of what? Should that not be disclosed? Should it no longer be refurbed?).

Long story short, I am awaiting for the estimate. This can be very bad, as Canon could hit me for extensive repairs on an unit that seems to have had some rough past events before I owned it.

BH Photo? They said nothing. Oh, that my BH Photo warranty is out, and there is nothing they can do. And yes, even three trips to the Service Center with a Repair counts as Refurbed. They directed me to the Used Equipt. Contact page to write a complaint (like someone is going to read it).

So what do I do if Canon wants to hit me for $1000 for repairs?... I guess I am out of luck, huh... Then I end up paying more for this camera than for a Mk III or a MkIIN.

I will definitely keep you updated, but the moral of this story is my own new rule.

I will buy nothing that is not sealed in its box, with a NEW stamp on it, and specially an invoice of the company accepting warranty over it.

I've read many joking around about BH putting some returns right back on the shelf. I am having my doubts that what I thought insane, might be possible in some cases.

Anyhow, to all those of you contemplating buying a Refurb, please consider that it is simply a used device, and it could hide any secrets.

Info or tips on what to do -besides crapping up the money to pay for it-, I would really appreciate it.

Am I really over-reacting that bad?...

You might try going to resellerratings.com and telling your story in on B&H evaluation page. B&H has a guy that responds frequently there, so you might be able to get their attention better there in a public forum than by contacting them directly. It's worth a shot, at least, if you can't get good service directly.

One more thing: I was led to believe that if it says "factory refurbished" then it means that Canon actually refurbished it, which means that it's under something like a 90-day warranty from Canon. Is that not the case with yours?

I don't know for sure that manufacturer refurbs always end up back with the original retailer. Not all retailers offer manufacturer refurbs, so would that mean they never send anything back to Canon? If that's the case, B&H may not have known anything about the camera history. Canon may offer out refurbs to the retailers willing to sell them.

Factory refurbished means it's been given a once over and repaired as necessary by the manufacturer. It doesn't imply once only though or amount of prior usage or amount of testing during problem resolution. There may also be a distinction between Canon refurbished and just plain refurbished.

Luckily here in Canada, Canon offers a regular full year warranty on their refurbs.

Yeah, what do you think "refurbished" means? Sure you hear here that "most refurbs" are just "store returns" and that they are a "good bargain" but refurbished actually means that it was sent back to the manufacturer for some reason and possibly repaired. You have no idea why and the manufacturer doesn't ever disclose this. All they guarantee is that to the best of their knowledge it is in "as-new" condition and they then offer a limited time warranty. I doubt that except as an accident, a refurb NEVER ends up back at the same shop where it started. What a logistics headache to make that work.

I have a refurbed 20D. I got it at 30% off the going price. I understood all of this going in. Would I do it to save $500 on a $3000 camera? Don't know. You take your chances, as you're finding out.

If you remain calm but firm and work your way up the chain you may be able to get your repair bill reduced or eliminated. Good luck!

I myself have adopted your new police long ago. I will never knowingly buy a refurb as the initial savings can be swallowed up in repair costs afterwards. It’s a gamble. We refurbs our product where I work, not cameras, though some have cameras built in. Many are just returns, and some have a flaw. They are all retested brought back into full operation and retested again. If they pass, they are repackaged and shipped to stores at a lower cost where they sell them as refurbs. You buy one saving a few bucks and you might get one someone really just didn’t want and there is nothing wrong and you got a great deal, or you might get one like this. A customer has some intermittent problem and instead of working it through repair chooses to just return the item and not inform the store that it is acting funny. The store sends it back to us, the factory, where we put it on the test bed. If it passes all the tests as it did the first time it is re-packaged as a refurb. If it fails and it is easy to fix, it is repaired, re-packaged and sold as a refurb. You, wanting to save a few bucks buy it and get the first one where it passed test because the problem is intermittent. The problem hits you some time later or gets worse and breaks in your possession. There goes your cost savings.

New products can fail just after the warranty expires too. Yes, it is a gamble, but so is buying something brand new. And used gear can fail outside of its return period too. They are all just different gambles with different pay offs and different odds. But if you're not comfortable with a used piece of gear, you should never buy refurbed or even "open box."

I still maintain that it's less of a risk to buy used from a reputable user here that to buy factory refurbished for the reasons stated above. Peer pressure is a good motivator to not screw your co-members.

vondo wrote in post #3914065
New products can fail just after the warranty expires too. Yes, it is a gamble, but so is buying something brand new. And used gear can fail outside of its return period too. They are all just different gambles with different pay offs and different odds. But if you're not comfortable with a used piece of gear, you should never buy refurbed or even "open box."

You are right, it’s just the odds. Say I produce 100,000 cameras and I have a 1% failure rate and a 1% i changed my mind rate. That means that of the 100,000 I sold, there will be 1000 unhappy customers and 1000 returns but they all send the camera back. My pool or refurbs is 2000 and ½ are faulty. So, my odds of getting a problem product is much higher. With new it’s 1 in a hundred, with refurb, it’s 1 in 2. Now the real numbers are different I’m sure but still, the odds that you get a problem product is higher with a referb. If I’m already spending thousands, is saving a couple hundred worth the risk? To some it is and some it’s not. I myself am not willing to take that risk.

gjl711 wrote in post #3914124
You are right, it’s just the odds. Say I produce 100,000 cameras and I have a 1% failure rate and a 1% i changed my mind rate. That means that of the 100,000 I sold, there will be 1000 unhappy customers and 1000 returns but they all send the camera back. My pool or refurbs is 2000 and ½ are faulty. So, my odds of getting a problem product is much higher. With new it’s 1 in a hundred, with refurb, it’s 1 in 2. Now the real numbers are different I’m sure but still, the odds that you get a problem product is higher with a referb. If I’m already spending thousands, is saving a couple hundred worth the risk? To some it is and some it’s not. I myself am not willing to take that risk.

You're leaving out the fact that of those faulty products that are sent back, some of the faults will be noticed by the refurbisher and some will not. I have no idea what the fractions there are, but a refurb is not a "repackage and return to the shelf" any more than it is "returned in 30 days because the customer didn't like it." Otherwise what you say is completely accurate.

In a lot of products refurbs are sent out to customers who send their own product in for repair or replacement. I don't know if that's true with Canon. I suspect they do that less often since there are refurbs available in the retail channel.

mjgravina wrote in post #3912595
When the camera got to my hands, I found a bit strange that the device had a tad over 4k actuations. Little high for a Refurb (a 14 day return customer who does not want it, and it goes back to Canon for a cleaning, and then back to BH Photo).

That's not the only definition for a refurb.

Thanks for the great input.

Two things pop to mind, after reading all 10 replies:

First, yes, shame on me. I knew better. Trying to save, I dug a hole. I will get the estimate on repairs in just a few minutes. Frankly, I am scared to even call. So I share your thoughts, at this level of purchase, either know the source very well before buying, or purchase new.

Second, The refurb issue. This camera has already proven to be faulty, and on top of that, it's failed again about six months from the time of purchase, and 8 after the last trip to Canon for repair (According to Canon's Records). I feel in one hand, BH Should make clear what their 9 and +9 ratings are, and what refurbs are. Whatever the word means in every industry, I think what is important is how this particular company uses it. When I called to make sure and ask, they told me: Refurbed is an opened box camera that has gone back to canon after a customer return (thought of 90 day return or something, not BH Accepting a returned camera that has gone to Canon twice before. That should count as used, and not refurbed, right?...).

Anyhow, gonna call right now, and post the update. Thanks for the support, everyone.

gjl711 wrote in post #3914124
If I’m already spending thousands, is saving a couple hundred worth the risk? To some it is and some it’s not. I myself am not willing to take that risk.

My thinking exactly! I bought a refurbed 10D back in January and it was only $499. Not much of a risk/loss if it crapped out, and I did have the 90 days warranty on it.
When I went hunting for a 5D, no way was I going to try and save a few hundred for exactly the reason you mention, when it was still going to cost me over $2k. In that case buying new made a lot more sense.

MJ.. that sucks!!! i will listen to your advice. i have only one thing used in my kit, and that is a 55-200 usm lens that i bought on a used canon film body for 100 dollars. and it has never ever failed me, or given me any grief. and the film body is in great condition as well, and takes really nice pictures.

im lucky in that department. i admit that i bought the camera kit so i could get the lens. lol. but they have both served me very well. and i am terribly sorry that this has happened to you.

maybe a small claims suit might help them straighten this out? then again i dont know. i think its a little shady that they didnt tell you when you bought it that it had been in for more than just a cleaning.

i also think you should ask canon what it was in for the last time.

im sorry to hear about this, and i hope this gets resolved quickly for you.

shannon

mjgravina wrote in post #3915264
The refurb issue. This camera has already proven to be faulty, and on top of that, it's failed again about six months from the time of purchase, and 8 after the last trip to Canon for repair (According to Canon's Records). I feel in one hand, BH Should make clear what their 9 and +9 ratings are, and what refurbs are. Whatever the word means in every industry, I think what is important is how this particular company uses it. When I called to make sure and ask, they told me: Refurbed is an opened box camera that has gone back to canon after a customer return (thought of 90 day return or something, not BH Accepting a returned camera that has gone to Canon twice before. That should count as used, and not refurbed, right?...).

Anyhow, gonna call right now, and post the update. Thanks for the support, everyone.

If its as long as your saying, I agree, used would have been more appropriate, but I have a feeling that B&H is using the refurb label for anything that is sent back to the factory to be re-certified irrespective of age. Used is simple someone trading it in and you buy as is. Either way it would be nice to see some history of the refurb before purchase. I’m sure your decision would have been different if you had known its history.