Need help on learning to shoot full manual...

Andy_T wrote in post #3966418
Back on topic ... Chabooky386 ... go get that book.

It's good.

Best regards,
Andy

PS ... Your screen name is ... so ... 80's

ahahah i got the book... and how is my name soooo 80's?????

tonybear007 wrote in post #3965670
Here is a suggestion: Instead of trying to control all the variables at once, learn the importance of the aperture-priority mode (Av) first and then the shutter speed-priority mode (Tv).

For example pick a fixed ISO (say 400) and use different apertures as you take several photos of a subject against a busy background. What you will notice is that wider apertures (like f/2.8, f/3.5 or f/4) give you shallow depth of field and blurred background.

You use wide apertures to create stunning images that stand out against a blurred background. Portrait photos oftentimes require wide apertures.

When you want most of your subject to be in focus (such as landscape or a large group of people) you use a narrow aperture like f/11 and f/16. This will give be a very sharp area (the focal point) and relatively sharp areas in front and behind that point.

Fast shutter speed freezes action and slow shutter speed gives a sense of motion. For example if you take a picture of a helicopter in flight, a fast shutter speed makes the rotors look stationary. (Not a winning image.) A slow shutter speed is preferred since the rotors will appear somewhat blurred and give a greater sense of motion. Waterfalls are rivers are usually shot with show shutter speeds to give a pleasing look to the flow of water.

PS. The type of lens you use also affects the depth of field. Telephoto gives a more shallow depth of field compared to a wide angle lens.

Now this made total sense thanks! i understood it and didnt get lost...

chabooky386 wrote in post #3967842
Now this made total sense thanks! i understood it and didnt get lost...

Glad I was able to help.

Look at the following images:

1. Bird of Paradise (flower) - very wide aperture to give a completely blurred background
http://anthonythomasph​otos.com/bird-of-paradise.jpg

2. Water sprinkler - very slow shutter speed that created the "strands" of water leaving the sprinkler
http://anthonythomasph​otos.com/water-sprinkler.jpg

3. Moss Glen Falls (Vermont) - slow shutter speed to create motion effect rather than frozen water with fast shutter speed
http://anthonythomasph​otos.com/moss-glen-falls.jpg

4. Vista View Park (Davie FL) - narrow aperture to get most of the scene in focus
http://anthonythomasph​otos.com/vista-view-park4.jpg

Hermeto wrote in post #3966591
The point of shooting Manual is not in placing the needle in the middle; the point is in knowing WHAT to meter off.
In another words, WHERE to point your camera to get the read out from the meter, that has to be in the middle.

But shouldn't that also be useful for any priority mode as well? I admit, I normally shoot Av with spot metering. I find it faster and just as versatile as M. It's also a throwback to my old manual SLR! I find spot metering very easy if I use Custom fn 4: metering and then locking exposure to then focus with *. As long as you realize that Av is simply selecting the shutter, you can still control the shutter speed by knowing what relation it is to the aperture. The camera's priority mode is simply setting the function to whatever the meter is reading at the setting you have specified. M is like a standard shift car....Av and Tv are like a standard shift with automatic clutch

dicky109 wrote in post #3961043
There's a web site & forum that opened up a few months ago, although without much action that's devoted to manual photography, in fact its called www.goingmanual.com. The host has put together some free tutorials to download that look interesting, although I haven't read them yet.

Hope this may be of some help to you.

Good luck,

Nice, basic, easy to read and understand approach. Brian Peterson tends to use terms that are a little unfamiliar... I'll read his later when I get a better grasp of things.

davesrose wrote in post #3968364
But shouldn't that also be useful for any priority mode as well? I admit, I normally shoot Av with spot metering. I find it faster and just as versatile as M. It's also a throwback to my old manual SLR! I find spot metering very easy if I use Custom fn 4: metering and then locking exposure to then focus with *. As long as you realize that Av is simply selecting the shutter, you can still control the shutter speed by knowing what relation it is to the aperture. The camera's priority mode is simply setting the function to whatever the meter is reading at the setting you have specified. M is like a standard shift car....Av and Tv are like a standard shift with automatic clutch

To know which part of the scene you have to meter off is useful in any mode, no question about that!

But, there is a difference between M and Av.
Let’s use your scenario.

You set your camera to Av, Spot metering, focusing with * button, right?
Then, you look through the viewfinder, find the point of interest, set aperture to your liking..
You move or zoom in, focus on it and take a read out of the internal light meter.
Adjust EC until the needle is in the middle, half press shutter button to lock the exposure.
After that, you recompose, focus with * and keep pressing to fire a shot.

With camera set exactly the same, but in M mode, you do exactly the same, except that you don’t have to hold shutter button half pressed!
Once you set the needle in the middle, your index finger is free..

Sometimes this little detail can make a big difference, but most of the times is just more convenient..

Andy_T wrote in post #3966127
I second that suggestion.

To be quite honest, I'd like to introduce a heretic thought into this noble thread here ...

I don't understand what you need M for anyway! There. I said it.

OK, I understand it, and there are some things you can only do with M, ...

... but for 'normal shooting' I find
- AV mode
- coupled with deliberate selection of the spot to meter (e.g. according to the suggestion in Peterson's book)
- and with dialing in the needed exposure compensation
much more useful.

I find manual useful for normal shooting for three reasons:

1. It allows me to set the exposure once in order to capture multiple images using the same light source (because the exposure shouldn't change in that situation).
   
2. It allows me to set the exposure independently of pressing the shutter button (or using exposure lock -- I have focus assigned to the exposure lock button).
   
3. It allows me to meter off of areas in the scene that require more than 2 stops of EC to achieve proper exposure.

Nope. You should use what you feel gets you the best results. If you're learning as I am, then manual may be the way to go because you'll hopefully get a better feel for exposure that way. But it's certainly not the only way to go.

kcbrown wrote in post #3968728
I find manual useful for normal shooting for three reasons:

1. It allows me to set the exposure once in order to capture multiple images using the same light source (because the exposure shouldn't change in that situation).
   
2. It allows me to set the exposure independently of pressing the shutter button (or using exposure lock -- I have focus assigned to the exposure lock button).
   
3. It allows me to meter off of areas in the scene that require more than 2 stops of EC to achieve proper exposure.

...

Excellent point, I forgot about that!

Hermeto wrote in post #3966591
But if it is not the case - if the point of interest is not the whole image, or it is not in the middle - you’ll have a problem.
EC will have to be applied.
That means guessing, shooting, chimping the histogram, readjusting EC, shooting, chimping, etc.

Hermeto wrote in post #3968598
Let’s use your scenario.

You set your camera to Av, Spot metering, focusing with * button, right?
Then, you look through the viewfinder, find the point of interest, set aperture to your liking..
You move or zoom in, focus on it and take a read out of the internal light meter.
Adjust EC until the needle is in the middle, half press shutter button to lock the exposure.
After that, you recompose, focus with * and keep pressing to fire a shot.

That is actually why I made the addition about setting CF 4-1 ... putting AF on the '*' button.
IMO you can do all you want to do in AV mode by half-pressing the shutter button and keeping it down.

This is what I do:

I can - in AV mode with partial metering (my 20D does not have spot metering )
- just point the center at the part I want to meter from (and maybe zoom in to have the 9% center capture more of what I want to meter from),
- half-press the shutter button to take exposure (indicated by a '*' in the viewfinder and the freezing of the shutterspeed),
- point the camera at where I want to focus,
- push the '*' button to focus,
- then recompose (and zoom out if I have zoomed in before)
- and fully press the shutter button to take the image.

Voila.

Of course, for some situations I will still have to dial in Exposure compensation before.

So ... anybody who sees a flaw in this, correct me if I'm missing something!!!

kcbrown wrote in post #3968728

It allows me to meter off of areas in the scene that require more than 2 stops of EC to achieve proper exposure

But ... when I use Manual mode, I over- or underexpose by setting exposure/aperture so that the 'light meter needle' indicates that I am either -2 or +2 away from the 'proper exposure ... correct me if I'm wrong, but more or less than 2 is not possible (at least not controlled, of course you can wait until it starts flashing and then count the number of stops you increase it after that).

With a light meter, surely you can.

chabooky386 wrote in post #3967832
ahahah i got the book... and how is my name soooo 80's?????

Change it to ChabookyPentium, then I'll tell you

Best regards,
Andy

Andy_T wrote in post #3969903
That is actually why I made the addition about setting CF 4-1 ... putting AF on the '*' button.
IMO you can do all you want to do in AV mode by half-pressing the shutter button and keeping it down.

This is what I do:

I can - in AV mode with partial metering (my 20D does not have spot metering )
- just point the center at the part I want to meter from (and maybe zoom in to have the 9% center capture more of what I want to meter from),
- half-press the shutter button to take exposure (indicated by a '*' in the viewfinder and the freezing of the shutterspeed),
- point the camera at where I want to focus,
- push the '*' button to focus,
- then recompose (and zoom out if I have zoomed in before)
- and fully press the shutter button to take the image.

Voila.

Of course, for some situations I will still have to dial in Exposure compensation before.

So ... anybody who sees a flaw in this, correct me if I'm missing something!!!


Change it to ChabookyPentium, then I'll tell you

Best regards,
Andy

You missed this part:

Hermeto wrote in post #3968598
With camera set exactly the same, but in M mode, you do exactly the same, except that you don’t have to hold shutter button half pressed!
Once you set the needle in the middle, your index finger is free..

Andy_T wrote in post #3969903
But ... when I use Manual mode, I over- or underexpose by setting exposure/aperture so that the 'light meter needle' indicates that I am either -2 or +2 away from the 'proper exposure ... correct me if I'm wrong, but more or less than 2 is not possible (at least not controlled, of course you can wait until it starts flashing and then count the number of stops you increase it after that).

That's exactly right. You can't tell by looking at the meter how many stops above or below neutral gray you are once you get beyond 2 stops (in either direction). But if you're in manual mode, you can count the clicks of the wheel to go further. I have mine set up for 1/3 stop increments, so 3 clicks of the wheel gets me one additional stop.

In Av or Tv mode, however, your exposure compensation is limited to +/- 2 stops (at least on the 30D). In other words, even if you continue turning the wheel, you don't get any more EC.


There's certainly nothing wrong with your approach. I just find that full manual mode works better for me overall. It's an individual preference. If you're getting good exposures, who cares how you're doing it?

kcbrown wrote in post #3970024
There's certainly nothing wrong with your approach. I just find that full manual mode works better for me overall. It's an individual preference. If you're getting good exposures, who cares how you're doing it?

QFT! So what you and Hermeto are saying is that you like manual over Av for your own convenience and preference. For my own preference, I usually only use manual if there's a scenario where I know I don't want my exposure to change. But since most of the time, I want the meter to adapt to the changing environment, I find Av to be a convenient mode for myself. I don't normally have to do EC except for special occasions: spot metering your mid tones is the most important thing and will give you dead on exposure. Even picking the value range you need exposed in a HDR scene is easy enough to do with spot metering and any shooting mode. No matter what my mode, I try to pick and use the meter more then testing out exposure settings.

So really, it's if you find moving a couple dials around and then AF.....or if you find moving one dial then half pressing a button then AFing more convenient. No right or wrong. Whatever floats your boat and gives you consistent exposures. I think part of the reason I caught on to the * AF idea is that I like pressing buttons more then moving dials

davesrose wrote in post #3970475
So really, it's if you find moving a couple dials around and then AF.....or if you find moving one dial then half pressing a button then AFing more convenient. No right or wrong. Whatever floats your boat and gives you consistent exposures.

Exactly!
There are some minor differences, but it all boils down to personal preference..
With XT, I also started with mostly Av, but over the time, switched to M.

Hermeto wrote in post #3970541
Exactly!
There are some minor differences, but it all boils down to personal preference..
I also started with mostly Av, but over the time, switched to M.

See I started with manual film, with a camera that only had Tv if I wanted it. I find that since photography is all about *you the operator* setting exposure the way you want to......well I can do that faster and just as well with Av and CF 4. I probably would still be shooting with my manual SLR, for some nostalgia......if only film weren't so hard to find now It did take longer for me to adjust exposure with it.....but man, you have even more substantial rings to adjust: big aperture ring on the lens barrel and a real shutter dial on the body. It's also such an old camera that there's no readouts in the viewfinder except the meter....you have to look on the outside to change your settings. Times have changed, and I like the change....even though my old camera is built like a tank and outlives film itself

Hermeto wrote in post #3968598
With camera set exactly the same, but in M mode, you do exactly the same, except that you don’t have to hold shutter button half pressed!
Once you set the needle in the middle, your index finger is free..

You are absolutely right!

My index finger will be ... liberated!!!

(to turn the little wheel instead )

kcbrown wrote in post #3970024
There's certainly nothing wrong with your approach. I just find that full manual mode works better for me overall. It's an individual preference.

You are right. I am very relieved.

If you're getting good exposures, who cares how you're doing it?

Well, guess I'll have to work on that little part, then ...

Best regards,
Andy