Need help on learning to shoot full manual...

Andy_T wrote in post #3970604
You are absolutely right!

My index finger will be ... liberated!!!

(to turn the little wheel instead )

It will be liberated to turn the little wheel and half press your shutter to AF! And your thumb will be liberated to meter and move the shutter dial! Actually, I think coming from a manual SLR is what really sold me on having the * button as AF......my manual SLR meters with half button shutter....there is no AF. AF was the big thing I had to get used to. I'm probably still one who would switch to MF sooner then most other POTNers. A split-prism screen for my 5D was the most liberating device I found for it!!

davesrose wrote in post #3970602
See I started with manual film, with a camera that only had Tv if I wanted it. I find that since photography is all about *you the operator* setting exposure the way you want to......well I can do that faster and just as well with Av and CF 4. I probably would still be shooting with my manual SLR, for some nostalgia......if only film weren't so hard to find now It did take longer for me to adjust exposure with it.....but man, you have even more substantial rings to adjust: big aperture ring on the lens barrel and a real shutter dial on the body. It's also such an old camera that there's no readouts in the viewfinder except the meter....you have to look on the outside to change your settings. Times have changed, and I like the change....even though my old camera is built like a tank and outlives film itself

I also started with all Manual - back in ’69 it was the only choice.
But when I switched to digital, I first went with Av.
That’s why I edited the last sentence of my previous post: added ‘With XT’.
Couple of month later, I was back to mostly M.

tonybear007 wrote in post #3968236
Glad I was able to help.

Look at the following images:

1. Bird of Paradise (flower) - very wide aperture to give a completely blurred background
http://anthonythomasph​otos.com/bird-of-paradise.jpg

2. Water sprinkler - very slow shutter speed that created the "strands" of water leaving the sprinkler
http://anthonythomasph​otos.com/water-sprinkler.jpg

3. Moss Glen Falls (Vermont) - slow shutter speed to create motion effect rather than frozen water with fast shutter speed
http://anthonythomasph​otos.com/moss-glen-falls.jpg

4. Vista View Park (Davie FL) - narrow aperture to get most of the scene in focus
[URL="[URL]http://anth​onythomasphotos.com/vi​sta-view-park4.jpg"][URL="[URL]http://anth​onythomasphotos.com/vi​sta-view-park4.jpg"][URL]http:/​/anthonythomasphotos.c​om/vista-view-park4.jpg

To achieve a crystal clear picture would you achieve this being handheld? Or with a narrow aperture you would need to use a tripod?

Andy_T wrote in post #3969903
That is actually why I made the addition about setting CF 4-1 ... putting AF on the '*' button.
IMO you can do all you want to do in AV mode by half-pressing the shutter button and keeping it down.

This is what I do:

I can - in AV mode with partial metering (my 20D does not have spot metering )
- just point the center at the part I want to meter from (and maybe zoom in to have the 9% center capture more of what I want to meter from),
- half-press the shutter button to take exposure (indicated by a '*' in the viewfinder and the freezing of the shutterspeed),
- point the camera at where I want to focus,
- push the '*' button to focus,
- then recompose (and zoom out if I have zoomed in before)
- and fully press the shutter button to take the image.

Voila.

Of course, for some situations I will still have to dial in Exposure compensation before.

So ... anybody who sees a flaw in this, correct me if I'm missing something!!!


But ... when I use Manual mode, I over- or underexpose by setting exposure/aperture so that the 'light meter needle' indicates that I am either -2 or +2 away from the 'proper exposure ... correct me if I'm wrong, but more or less than 2 is not possible (at least not controlled, of course you can wait until it starts flashing and then count the number of stops you increase it after that).

With a light meter, surely you can.


Change it to ChabookyPentium, then I'll tell you

Best regards,
Andy

...

chabooky386 wrote in post #3970918
To achieve a crystal clear picture would you achieve this being handheld? Or with a narrow aperture you would need to use a tripod?

Try it out!

That picture was taken in broad daylight, so it will still have a fast shutter speed even if you use a low ISO.

There is something called the 'Sunny 16 rule' ... something left over from the old days of fully manual photograhpy ... basically it says that if you do not have a light meter with you, and it is a bright sunny day, then if you set your aperture to f/16, your shutter speed will be that of your ISO ... for ISO 100 ... 1/100, for ISO 400 ... 1/400 etc.: http://en.wikipedia.or​g/wiki/Sunny_16_rule

BTW, I find nothing wrong with increasing ISO ... my 'standard' setting on my 20D is ISO 400 outside or 800 if it is an overcast day. I rather go to ISO 3200 and underexpose by a stop than get a blurred picture because the shutter speed gets to slow.

Other than that ... I would not go much past f/11 unless I absolutely need it on my 20D ... already gives quite a large field of view, and diffraction starts to kick in after that.
I have found that most often f/11 gives better overall images than f/16.

Best regards,
Andy

Andy_T wrote in post #3971288
Try it out!

That picture was taken in broad daylight, so it will still have a fast shutter speed even if you use a low ISO.

There is something called the 'Sunny 16 rule' ... something left over from the old days of fully manual photograhpy ... basically it says that if you do not have a light meter with you, and it is a bright sunny day, then if you set your aperture to f/16, your shutter speed will be that of your ISO ... for ISO 100 ... 1/100, for ISO 400 ... 1/400 etc.: http://en.wikipedia.or​g/wiki/Sunny_16_rule

BTW, I find nothing wrong with increasing ISO ... my 'standard' setting on my 20D is ISO 400 outside or 800 if it is an overcast day. I rather go to ISO 3200 and underexpose by a stop than get a blurred picture because the shutter speed gets to slow.

Other than that ... I would not go much past f/11 unless I absolutely need it on my 20D ... already gives quite a large field of view, and diffraction starts to kick in after that.
I have found that most often f/11 gives better overall images than f/16.

Best regards,
Andy

Thanks for the helpful link!

Andy_T wrote in post #3966127
I second that suggestion.

To be quite honest, I'd like to introduce a heretic thought into this noble thread here ...

I don't understand what you need M for anyway!
much more useful.

....

On the contrary, if I have to scr*w around with all the settings for every image, I am afraid I might use some images where fast reacion is key.
...

Best regards,
Andy

Hi Andy,

I use M a lot under certain conditions.

With M, once set it ain't gonna wander all over the place in response to lighter or darker colored subjects (an in-camera spot meter is just as susceptible to this as any in-camera metering mode).

In fact, compensation is for the Tv and Av auto exposure modes (and to some extent P mode), not for M manual exposure mode. So, I save having to spend any time dialing in compensation, too.

For example, say I'm photographing a horse show and there are a variety of colors of horses, plus riders are wearing a wide variety of clothing: light, dark and everything in between. When shooting against a particular background repeatedly and in reasonably consistent lighting, I'll simply switch to M and set the exposure manually. I can do this initially from the meter in the camera, perhaps using a patch of grass or foliage as a "grey card" to choose my settings, checking the histogram after a shot or two and tweaking it a little if needed. But, I prefer to use a separate, handheld incidence meter, instead of reflective, and usually have one on my belt. For me, this gives a more accurate reading than a reflective meter (where you have tomake allowance or compensate for the subject's coloration, or other dominant colors, lightness, darkness in the image area).

In this sort of situation, I can take shot after shot properly exposed, with no changes to the camera's settings. So, it's faster for me than shooting in Tv or Av AE modes, while trying to set compensation per subject matter. With exposure nailed down, I can concentrate on composition and getting accurate focus.

Another situation, I often use flash for fill. Say I also want a high enough shutter speed to stop most movement, and a certain amount of depth of field to insure focus, plus want to use the lowest ISO possible for quality. The M mode is the answer. With it, I can choose the balance of ISO, aperture and shutter that I need, and set the flash to fill (approx. -1 to -1.5 stops when used on a Canon set to M). This will be consistent shot after shot, too. I don't need to tweak things with FEC or camera exposure compensation.

I do have to watch out for subtle changes in lighting, an occasional check of the histogram helps as a double check.

And, doing this I can easily set other variables, such as dialing in a slower shutter speed for deliberate motion blur with panning shots. Or, larger aperture for minimal depth of field to hide a busy background.

I guess since I managed to shoot a lot manually for a couple decades with film, it's just not a big deal to me. With digital you have immediate feedback in the histogram, if you have chose the right exposure. That's so much better than film, where it could be a week before your slides came back from processing and you get to see if you chose correctly, or not.

There are other situations where I let the camera do the adjustments, in Av and Tv modes. For example, highly variable lighting situations.

I very rarely use P mode. Once in a while when I need to very, very quickly modify the camera for an odd, single shot, that calls for something other than the way I have the camera set up, but don't have time to think about it and make a bunch of adjustments. I may just throw it into P mode and get the shot. A bit of hoping and praying, I suppose.

I don't think any of my cameras have ever been set on the green box or any of the picture styles modes, or whatever they are called. I'm not trying to sound snooty about this. It's just that I really don't trust those modes because I don't have a clue what the camera might do when set to them. I suppose I could learn, but the M, Av, Tv and P modes serve my purposes well, so I really don't need the other settings. Also, some of them engage the onboard flash, which I never use.

I agree, the reason there are different modes available is to meet different people's needs. There is no right or wrong. Sometimes people fear the unknown or are unwilling to try a different method until they feel more confident and comfortable with the camera. That's fine, too.

I can think of three good reasons for using "M" manual mode:

1) With flash it appears to be the only way to force the camera to expose for flash only. Otherwise the camera exposes for available light and uses the flash only for fill-in. In low light this causes very long exposure times and/or wide apertures. With "M" I can set the shutter speed to the flash-sync speed and a small aperture for depth-of-field.

2) When taking panorama shots to be stiched together, "M" forces the camera to use the same exposure for each.

3) After taking a failed shot due to over/underexposure, it might be easier to use "M", sent the previous exposure's shutter speed, aperture, and ISO manually, and make the appropriate adjustments.

My camera is a 300D. It is possible that other EOS xxD cameras have better ways to handle these situations. My film EOS Elan IIe, for example, had a function which allowed me to force the flash shutter speed to the maximum and set the aperture using the Av mode. (If anyone knows how to do this on a 300D, please respond.)

RodneyCyr wrote in post #3974435
My camera is a 300D. It is possible that other EOS xxD cameras have better ways to handle these situations. My film EOS Elan IIe, for example, had a function which allowed me to force the flash shutter speed to the maximum and set the aperture using the Av mode. (If anyone knows how to do this on a 300D, please respond.)

Glad to oblige. Install the Wasia hacked firmware and you have that option. I have my 300D set so when I'm shooting Av the flash shutter speed is locked at 1/200.

-js

SkipD wrote in post #3966194
I very distinctly remember using one of my Nikon F's (about the most "manual" of cameras ever invented, as I had a standard non-metering viewfinder and no motor film drive on mine) at an automobile race in England way back in '66 or so. There was a Mustang that I saw off in the distance that was smoking quite badly. I set my exposure, focused, and took four shots - adjusting the focus manually and winding the film manually for each shot - in less than two seconds. All four shots were in perfect focus, perfectly exposed, and I still have the negatives and contact prints tucked away. I think I even have a set of prints that I made from that series somewhere as well.

Man, I remember those days! Focusing with two fingers on my left hand and zooming with two more at the same time while shooting and winding with the right. Watching the match needles while adjusting aperture and shutter on the fly. Knowing that every time I pressed the shutter It was costing me.

I took way less shots and thought more about what I wanted from the shot. I'm a better photographer now that I have the Internet and forums like this to draw from and there's no way I'd go back to film, but I do miss the old days now and then.

Roach711 wrote in post #3974864
I took way less shots and thought more about what I wanted from the shot. I'm a better photographer now that I have the Internet and forums like this to draw from and there's no way I'd go back to film, but I do miss the old days now and then.

Well, the real question in my mind is: are you a better photographer for having had to use film and thus having to be disciplined in what you took shots of and how you took them?

I bet the answer is "yes"...

Like Skip, I used a Nikon F for many years. Although I had the high tech Photomic FTN viewfinder, so I had TTL exposure metering.

As Da Roach observed, the left hand was always busy and the right was on the shutter button. But the right hand had to move over to the knob to adjust the shutter speed, so mostly the Nikon was "shutter priority", same as Tv mode now.

It would have been better the other way around, but the mechanics of the camera just didn't work that way.

-js

Start w/ an ISO of 100, assuming you want to minimized grain.

Decide wether aperature or shutter speed is more important and set that first. For this example say aperature is more important and you want a decent DOF with minimal distortion, so you set the aperature to f/11.

Next meter and set the shutter speed so that the exposure meter is at 0. Of course if you know something that your meter doesn't you can change the exposure while metering by changing the shutter speed until the meter show the exposure you want. One reason I like M over Av and Tv modes is because I don't need to push a bunch of buttons to alter the exposure.

Lets just say that the wind is blowing, you have your camera set at ISO 100, f/11, and that a shutter speed of 1/60 gives you the exposure your looking for. You know that you can't get the tack sharp shot you want in the wind with a shutter speed of 1/60. You have two choices in order to maintain exposure while increasing shutter speed: open up the aperature or increase ISO. DOF is critical for your shot, so you boost the ISO up to 400 (4x100) and this allows you to get the same exposure using a shutter speed of 1/240 (four times your original shutter speed of 1/60).

ISO, aperature and shutter speed are directly related, so if you increase one you will have to decrease one ofthe other two in order to keep the same exposure.

Hope this makes sense and helps.

RodneyCyr wrote in post #3974435
I can think of three good reasons for using "M" manual mode:

My camera is a 300D. It is possible that other EOS xxD cameras have better ways to handle these situations. My film EOS Elan IIe, for example, had a function which allowed me to force the flash shutter speed to the maximum and set the aperture using the Av mode. (If anyone knows how to do this on a 300D, please respond.)

I know on my 400D, in the custom functions menu, you can set the function to always use 1/200 sec for shutter speed when using flash (forces the flash to output maximum brightness) in Av mode. So no matter what aperture you choose, the shutter speed will always be 1/200. I don't know if this is what you are referring to, but I hope it helps.

vert

kcbrown wrote in post #3975395
Well, the real question in my mind is: are you a better photographer for having had to use film and thus having to be disciplined in what you took shots of and how you took them?

I bet the answer is "yes"...

Being forced to work in manual mode absolutely gave me a great grounding in the basics of exposure, DOF and subject motion. Knowing that each frame was costing me made me slow down and think about what I wanted from the shot. All that adjusting guaranteed that I'd miss a lot of shots while fooling with the controls.

OTOH modern digital cameras give me a really good P mode for snap shooting as well as the ability to go to AV or M mode when I have time to think about the shot. I also get instant feedback on the shot so I can re-shoot if necessary. I'm glad I was forced to learn the basics on a manual-only camera, but I don't want to go back to one.

When I first went digital I tended to forget about what I had learned previously and let the camera do it's thing. That approach worked sometimes and failed miserably on others and my success rate went way down. Nowadays I'm taking back control when I need to and letting the camera have control when the conditions permit. It's really the best of both worlds.

The Internet gives me access to a boatload of tutorials and the ability to see other's photos for instruction and inspiration but that information would be useless if I didn't already know how to properly use the camera itself.