Learning photography. What camera?

I bought a Casio Exilim EX-Z3 awhile ago, as a point and shoot type camera that I could easily carry around. So far I love it and have managed to take some decent pictures with it. Now I'm starting to learn photograhy and the general concepts and techniques surrounding it. I'm looking into a new camera that will help me w/learning photography skills, and I've come across great reviews on the Canon Digital Rebel and the Canon Rebel Ti. Should I get another digital camera or learn with film? What's the best way to really learn photography? I've heard many people saying digital provides instant gratification and allows you to edit whatever you need to edit right after you take the picture, which I understand. Are there advantages to buying a 35mm SLR camera right now, besides being a lot cheaper?

I would say learn with digital. It is cheaper in the long run and you get to see the pic then.

In a lot of ways I think that a completely manual camera is the best way to start. This means that you have to set the ISO, the aperture and the shutterspeed all by yourself, and in the process of understanding all of this stuff, you will take command of the camera.

But it's not very practical to do this anymore. Don't mess with a cheaper film SLR. Just bite the price bullet and have free film to play with. I'd get a 10D, promise myself that it would stay on M for the forseeable future, and then I'd shoot until my finger bled.

You just have to be so careful that you don't get caught up in the autofocus, zooming, program modes, and all the other bells and whistles that simplify the process so much that it's easier to let the camera take care of things for you. And for a long time the camera probably WILL make better decisions than you. But once again, it you ever want to be a real photographer you must control the camera and not the other way around.

It was my 30 year-old Minolta SLR that made me fall in love with Photography, but it ended up being Powershot G2 that helped me get much, much better at it, at least better than people I know anyway. So it is my Digital SLR that has let me be in love with something that I am good at using.

That is the way it went for me. I can't imagine taking the G2 out of the process as I never would have shelled out the clams for DSLR unless I had understood how great digital photography is.

My recommendation is to buy a DSLR and set it to M for about 6 months. Sometimes I do that just out of respect for the old Minolta.

An argument can be made that the only real way to learn photography is to use a manual mode film SLR. It seems that some beginner photography classes require this.

On the other hand, with modern D-SLR camera advancing the way they are, there seems to be less need to learn all of the manual stuff. I mean, it is nice to know the manual stuff, but the modern stuff inside the camera can often calculate exposures faster and better than the human. Note that I stated often. It can't do it better 100% of the time. Often the human eyeball-to-brain link can see something that the camera can't see. In those cases, it is great to have a camera that gets it 98% right, and then let the human control take over to get the last 2% perfect.

I just finished some travel where I shot about 180 frames digitally, and another 120 frames on film, so I go both ways.

---Bob Gross---

Consider this; with film you have to write in a notebook your settings for each shot. With digital you have all the information there as you look at the shot. Digital gives you the opportunity to see what adjustments you need for a given situation. This is where you can learn what you want to know. Of course you can do the same with film but it takes a lot longer considering you have to go through the film development stage.

That is an excellent practice, and some camera classes require this of the student.

I was having a discussion last week with a new Nikon film shooter, and I asked about her notebook. She showed me her first entries for the first roll of film. I studied those for a second, and then I asked her what they mean. She didn't know.

Beginner Canon digital shooters might want to go back and look at some of their image files, and study the EXIF data with each image. Compare the settings from two similar shots, and try to understand why things are the way they are. Looking at how the image appears is important, but also look at the settings to figure out how you got to that point.

---Bob Gross---

the one thing I HATE about film...is carrying that darn notebook around...

I just use my pocket pc.

If cost is a consideration, as it often is with students,
get a G3/G5 level camera. For less than $400-500;
these cameras are a lot more than mere snapshooters,
a lot of professionals use these convenient units as
backups, and you can do serious work with them.

They provide full manual control, adjustments and
such that will teach you all the important concepts.
Even their limitations are in a way a good thing,
because they discipline you as an artist, and prepare
you to fully appreciate the capabilities of an SLR
down the road.

Furthermore, the argument against investing in an
expensive SLR system is that, by the time you've
mastered the main photographic concepts, there
probably will be a better/cheaper/more advanced
SLR on the market. You will also know yourself
better as a photographer, and hence make a better
educated decision as to what SLR system you want
to invest yourself into.

Just look at this guy's G5 portfolio:
http://www.chromasia.c​om/iblog/archive.php
he totally kicks ass of 99% of all of us DSLR shooters
out there. Also, note that Forum godfather Pekka started out
with a humble G1.

I first dabbled in SLR photography in the mid '70's with my trusty Canon AE-1 (which I still have). Used A-1's and T70/90's up until just over a year ago when I went EOS (still using film media). I've also been shooting digital for the last four years, but mainly as a point and shoot hobby .. my serious stuff was still shot on film. I've just moved over to serious digital and ordered my 10D .. so let the real fun begin.

Bottom line .. it's nice to learn the basics .. manual exposures, manual focus, etc .. but digital can teach you faster, as you see results in real time, and you may learn from your mistakes quicker. As DaveG stated .. get the 10D and use it in manual mode .. I don't think you'll regret it, as you'll grow into it.

IMO 300D is the way to go. It doesn't take that long to learn the relationship between the aperture and shutter speed , a bit more time on how they are related to image quality, bokeh, dof... etc

When you do learn that with a G1/3 or other digicam, you're gonna want interchangeable lenses, fast apertures and the coolness of belonging to EOS club.

So save your money and get an SLR from the start. Cause in all probability you're gonna end up like me switching from S1 to the Rebel and losing a bit of money...

DocFrankenstein wrote:
IMO 300D is the way to go. It doesn't take that long to learn the relationship between the aperture and shutter speed , a bit more time on how they are related to image quality, bokeh, dof... etc

When you do learn that with a G1/3 or other digicam, you're gonna want interchangeable lenses, fast apertures and the coolness of belonging to EOS club.

So save your money and get an SLR from the start. Cause in all probability you're gonna end up like me switching from S1 to the Rebel and losing a bit of money...

Do you mean SLR or DSLR?

which camera?

Experience speaking here. Don't climb your way to the top. Go ahead and spring for the Digi Rebel or a 10d or equivalent. That way you don't waste money all along the way upgrading when you learn the limits of your gear.

You can still learn all the manual stuff on them if you force yourself to get out of the auto modes.

Pick up a good book at a used bookstore or on Alibris about real photography and USE it.

John Hedgecoe's old book from the mid-70s comes to mind, although I can't remember the title. He also has some others (lots) out that are well worth your time.

Then learn what it means to process your images. It's much nicer in the digital world now without all the chemicals and mess, but you still have to learn and do the processing digitally to be really happy with your work. I think any photographer always dreams of having a darkroom at home. Now you can have it -- it still takes work, but all the the crap -- practical and psychological (if you're married or share a house with someone) -- surrounding a traditional one is gone.

dSLR is a subset of SLR. I don't know his budget so I can't advise him on what to get specifically.

Ideally it would be a sSLR, but he may not have the money. What I meant is the exact advice from yallcome in the above post ^^^^ Don't climb your way to the top.

The other thing with film is that you just can't learn as fast. No way. Even with super cheap development, you're not gonna take 50 pictures of the same subject just to test the DOF and different exposure values. No way.

Film forces you just to shoot in the field, instead of actually learning. So my take on it is this (from best way to worst):

1) Ideally, you have a good budget and just go for rebel/10D
Pros: Great cameras, free shutter clicks and high learning curve.
Cons: The costs involved.

2) You don't have the $$$ but willing to wait
You save up for a few months and get 10D/Rebel
Pros: You won't waste money in "the long run", but
Cons: you won't be able to learn at all right now

3) You don't enough for 10D and no patience.
Go with a digital fully manual non slr.
Pros: Lots of images, steep learning curve, point and shoots don't have mechanical shutters.
Cons: You lose money in the long run

4) Absollutely no money and no patience
Get an SLR.
Pros: Cheap. Still takes pictures.
Cons: You won't learn much. Not if you spend a grand or two in film processing. If you can't afford a rebel, you won't be able to afford to learn with your film camera. See the above.

Cheers

BTW: If you still want to get a film camera, make sure it's either a Canon EOS or Nikon... something that's compatible with D70. This way you'll use the kit lens on your rebel.