Ever gone to court over a cancellation?

Hey CDI,

I like the idea of larger deposits, but really the court costs and time involved aren't really prohibitive. The paperwork locally is filled out in about 15 minutes cost about $125.00 including delivery by the sherrif and you get that added to the tab should you win. I have had to sue 5 times and been sued once, in 30 years. Other than compromise I have yet to lose. I have suffered no loss of income and in two of the cases walked out with MORE than i was asking for. No one likes legal issues and yes they are a hassle, BUT it remains the only remedy when you are wronged. If you shoot long enough it will probably happend to you.

I got sued by a couple because a lab I used ate over half the film during processing. I was all set to give them a full refund but they wanted me to fly in guests, rent the church and rent the tuxes and do a reshoot!!! So I had to go to court to mitigate losses. The court forced me to give a complete refund and reshoot a portrait of the couple. I was all set to do that reshoot when she caught him flagrante delicto with an ex GF, so no portrait was ever shot...

The others were breach of license agreements. One I was asking for 2500 in back owed invoice and the judge doubled it because the client tried to skip town.

We use contracts for a reason, why whould we breach them? I see your point though.

Les

I hear your side too. I guess it just depends how much the contract would have paid off. If it was a big one, I'd probably go after it as well. A small entry package, not worth the effort to even think about it. I'd just put the $400 toward another Speedlite or something and consider it a freebie. Better yet, rent a hooker on their wedding day and email the couple some pics with a big THANKS in the subject line.

cdifoto wrote in post #4205675
I hear your side too. I guess it just depends how much the contract would have paid off. If it was a big one, I'd probably go after it as well. A small entry package, not worth the effort to even think about it. I'd just put the $400 toward another Speedlite or something and consider it a freebie. lol.

Yup sometimes that happens to me too!! I just hate getting burned because the client thinks they can or does not care. I did have a weird one last year though, In a client that was S L O W paying an invoice (re 18 months).

He calls me out of the blue and wants me to do a product shoot. I told him about the 18 month invoice that was accumulating interest, he was shocked. It turns out that his AP person did not want to do any work and was basically on the web all day instead of working. His invoice with interest was almost 2x it's original price. I received a check for the old invoice ASAP and a 50% deposit for the new shoot to boot. No argument on the cost of the shoot either!! Now I NEVER get the interest paid, ever. You can put in bold blue letters a foot high and no company pays it, but this guy did, go figure.

take care,

PS where are you getting $400 hookers? ,vbg> maybe PS in the grooms mug in the images.... DOH

Les

cdifoto wrote in post #4205488
I doubt that. I don't think it would fly with brides and grooms to be paying 100% that far ahead of the day. Full payment within a week prior or on the day of is more realistic...at least around here.

I'd think a photog would have to be in massive demand to get all the money that far in advance.

So that's why it's in my contract then!

TJ

As LBalwin said, Yup sometimes that happens to me too!! I just hate getting burned because the client thinks they can or does not care.

That is my point with this, it is the attitude by the client towards the contract. If I did it to them, at this point, with this attitude, how long do you think it would take for me to hear from thier lawyer? (My client had to find another photographer and the wedding is in 4 weeks, the mental stress it caused my client, they could not find a photographer for thier wedding, or the were not able to get a photgrapher that they were happy with and had to settle, do you want bad press, etc.) All things that could be brought up to me if I said I was cancelling and here is your deposit, so it is ok. Don't bother me again! This is what I'm driving at here.

cdifoto wrote in post #4205617
You obviously just want people to tell you to go for throat. So...

Go for throat.

You seem to be missing the point of the retainer. It's not just a happy little bonus so you can get a new flash when everyone signs on the dotted line. It's guaranteed money in case they do cancel. It happens. I wouldn't make a fuss - I'd just up the amount required by future couples.

I agree. My retainer is 1/2 the total balance, so I'm actually sometimes relieved when a client cancels. Like cdi said, I get paid w/o lifting a finger. Why would I sue for that?

It all depends on your contract. We can't tell you jack without reading it. And even then, only a lawyer will decipher what the court will decide. The bottom line is suing the couple when you have a "non-refundable retainer" is just plain stupid and will lose you a lot of business in the future. I hate to ask, but are you really in the right field of work?

amonline wrote in post #4205869
It all depends on your contract. We can't tell you jack without reading it. And even then, only a lawyer will decipher what the court will decide. The bottom line is suing the couple when you have a "non-refundable retainer" is just plain stupid and will lose you a lot of business in the future. I hate to ask, but are you really in the right field of work?

I wonder about the actual loss of business. Do you honesly think that the client will tell all their friends that they got sued by a photographer for breach of contract, lost and had to give up more money? I am not so sure.

I really don not think they would say too much. For these reasons, first when you are sent legal paperwork you are not inclined to tell your buddies you are a heel and being sued, two most of the time the paperwork alone scares the crap out of you unless it happens to you all the time. Really the lawsuit is meant to be settled PRIOR to getting to court, forcing a compromise. Also legally the only thing that they can tell their friends is the truth, if they lie or misrepresent the photographer, defamation could add a whole other set of issues. Like I said i have been down this road a few times, and suffered no ill effects that I know of...

Les

The only real evidence you will have for court is what is specifically in your contract and what parts of the subsequent conversations you have in emails. Phone conversations will not be of much use to either side.

You should just move on and forget about the balance as I doubt that any judge will see your side of that issue.

Rick

Take the $400 and leave it as others have already said. Reputation is always important. I wouldn't be want to be seen as someone willing to go to court

LBaldwin wrote in post #4205989
I wonder about the actual loss of business. Do you honesly think that the client will tell all their friends that they got sued by a photographer for breach of contract, lost and had to give up more money? I am not so sure.

Even if the couple only tells one other couple, bad talk generally spreads faster than good talk. You wouldn't stop the ball there in it's tracks. There's possibility of word spread through related business' and then the photog becomes the "guy to steer clear of". I personally would not want that possibility.

Here's another perspective:

Let's say the courts decide in your favor. What does that win you? Either A) the right to shoot the wedding after all if the courts are quick, or B) free money since the day would have passed if the courts are slow.

If A) - Can you honestly say you could shoot their wedding after battling it out in courts? Could you really provide them with the services they deserve as a couple on their wedding day? Somehow I doubt it. You'd go to that church as enemies and shoot them as enemies. Neither side deserves that.

If B) - Can you live with yourself for essentially getting free money out of the couple? After all, the day is long passed and you didn't shoot it because you didn't win the right to shoot it after all. Word will spread like wildfire that you didn't just walk away with your retainer - you went so far as to sue them for a crapload of FREE money for not doing a dang thing. It's not money you earned and everyone will know that.

Suing only does two of three things. It makes everyone bitter and enriches the lawyers or it makes you look vindictive and enriches the lawyers.

It is not really the money. Truthfully I make more doing commercial photography. I have been in the business since 84 and on my own since 87. I decided two years ago to limit my studio to only myself shooting weddings as running up to three jobs a day was not what I wanted. The jobs were just becoming about the money and not enjoyable to me.

This wedding is to take place in 35 days, Would I now do it since they broke the contract and they said we are sorry, you can do it now, or a judge said so, no!! It would not work at this point. Clients can't just decide if they will honor a contract or not.

I'm known as a nice easy going guy and do have a reputation in the area. 99% of my jobs are by referrals, in fact, the bride is a past client from her first wedding, which was about 5 years ago. Contracts are used to protect more than one side and that is the part that I'm upset about. The way it was done, as to the lies by the bride as to why she was looking for a change in the contract. That was fishing to see how strict I was as to changing contracts after the fact. The attitude from the groom that it does not matter a contractual agreement is in effect is also the reason I'm ticked off.

Why are we all afraid to stand up for our rights? and afraid of bad press for holding clients to a contract, which they in fact initiated. It is our business that is being devalued. Should we not use contracts since we all intend to follow through on our end and we don't need protection?

I get the feeling that most here have never had this situation and stood up for the contract. The contact that all clients want from us, to make sure we show up , we do what we say we would do, deliver what we say we would deliver.

I guess not all get where I'm coming from.

Rick Rosen wrote in post #4206523
You should just move on and forget about the balance as I doubt that any judge will see your side of that issue.

Even if his contract says that the couple owes the whole fee if cancelled less than 30 days before the weddings.

I thought a contract is an agreement that is unbreakable.

One thing is someone dies, other thing is people wasting your time maliciously.

And as he said - he doesn't need a free weekend and 400 bucks. He'd rather shoot it and get 2.5 grand... or whatever his fee is.

Moments wrote in post #4207342
It is not really the money. Truthfully I make more doing commercial photography. I have been in the business since 84 and on my own since 87. I decided two years ago to limit my studio to only myself shooting weddings as running up to three jobs a day was not what I wanted. The jobs were just becoming about the money and not enjoyable to me.

This wedding is to take place in 35 days, Would I now do it since they broke the contract and they said we are sorry, you can do it now, or a judge said so, no!! It would not work at this point. Clients can't just decide if they will honor a contract or not.

I'm known as a nice easy going guy and do have a reputation in the area. 99% of my jobs are by referrals, in fact, the bride is a past client from her first wedding, which was about 5 years ago. Contracts are used to protect more than one side and that is the part that I'm upset about. The way it was done, as to the lies by the bride as to why she was looking for a change in the contract. That was fishing to see how strict I was as to changing contracts after the fact. The attitude from the groom that it does not matter a contractual agreement is in effect is also the reason I'm ticked off.

Why are we all afraid to stand up for our rights? and afraid of bad press for holding clients to a contract, which they in fact initiated. It is our business that is being devalued. Should we not use contracts since we all intend to follow through on our end and we don't need protection?

I get the feeling that most here have never had this situation and stood up for the contract. The contact that all clients want from us, to make sure we show up , we do what we say we would do, deliver what we say we would deliver.

I guess not all get where I'm coming from.

We get where you're coming from. You're not getting how it could backfire, for no real gain except to give you a legal "neener neener neener I told you so!"