Second shooter images ethics question

I have been second shooting for a while now and I feel it's time for me to try and strike out on my own a bit. I'm in the process of getting a website together, business cards, etc.

My question pertains to the images I have shot with the pro I work with. Is it ok to ask for a few for my portfolio or is that a no no?

When I started with him everything was stated up front so there were no surprises. He knew I would eventually go on my own and this wouldn't be a permanent thing. He expects it, so no worries there. The only thing we didn't talk about was the question I have now. We have a great relationship, and I know he would probably give them to me if I asked, just because I asked. But my question is - is that the RIGHT thing to do?

I would rather not put him in an awkward position if I don't have to, so I'm asking here first. I'm just not sure how this stuff works.

Thanks for any input.
Chris

Well you took the photos correct? Then I would say they are yours to use? Maybe not...but that is what I would think. Maybe you should talk w him.

C.Steele wrote in post #4452432
I have been second shooting for a while now and I feel it's time for me to try and strike out on my own a bit. I'm in the process of getting a website together, business cards, etc.

My question pertains to the images I have shot with the pro I work with. Is it ok to ask for a few for my portfolio or is that a no no?

When I started with him everything was stated up front so there were no surprises. He knew I would eventually go on my own and this wouldn't be a permanent thing. He expects it, so no worries there. The only thing we didn't talk about was the question I have now. We have a great relationship, and I know he would probably give them to me if I asked, just because I asked. But my question is - is that the RIGHT thing to do?

I would rather not put him in an awkward position if I don't have to, so I'm asking here first. I'm just not sure how this stuff works.

Thanks for any input.
Chris

The way it work unless you signed something you have full copyright to your pictures.
You are allowing him to use your pictures in exchange for training.

This is generally how it works. I wouldn't worry too much about. You might even try and ask him which images he thinks are best. I can't beleive you actually gave him all the images and didn't keep a copy for yourself. If you took the pics they are yours and he needs your permission to use them. I am assuming this was the understanding when you started doing this. Just talk to him. He will respect you more if you talk to him. No you are not putting him in an uncomfortable position. Gook luck. Mark

You pressed the shutter so you most definitely are entitled to use your images to add to your portfolio.
I am sure that you will not be putting him in an awkward position, if he is professional...he will totally understand why you need the images to promote yourself.

Good luck with going it alone!

its time to ask the other photographer. You really needed to work that about ahead of time. Some allow it, others don't.

janine_w wrote in post #4454463
You pressed the shutter so you most definitely are entitled to use your images to add to your portfolio.
I am sure that you will not be putting him in an awkward position, if he is professional...he will totally understand why you need the images to promote yourself.

Good luck with going it alone!

completely depends on the contract, and I'm guessing there wasn't one.

work for hire DOES NOT entitle you to copyrights of the images.

some like Jessica Claire don't want their clients pictures on other sites they have no control of.

hmmm...agree there should have been a contract clarifying future use of the images!
it is a sticky one for sure.

let us know how you get on with this won't you Chris.

viperx27 wrote in post #4454492
its time to ask the other photographer. You really needed to work that about ahead of time. Some allow it, others don't.

This is the most professional way of handling this situation. As viper mentioned some photographers allow and some don't it is not up to you to decide it is for him/her.

Contracts are key, but in the case of not having one you should confront your photographer with this. Those images were shot for his/her studio not yours and you probably wouldn't be in the situation to take those images without him/her.

Also if you say that he/she will probably let you use the images then that is your best bet. If you keep the friendship alive he/she might even push a wedding your way on an overflow booking. Try not to burn bridges, even if non-intentional.

If you make money from selling the photos I would say that was a "no no" but using images you actually took to promote yourself I see no issues with.

As said speak to the "Pro" about it but if he is really a pro he will have no issues with it.

viperx27 wrote in post #4454492
its time to ask the other photographer. You really needed to work that about ahead of time. Some allow it, others don't.

Since there doesn't seem to be a contract it is the other way around.
The 2nd is allowing the main to use the pictures.

nikonthree wrote in post #4456271
This is the most professional way of handling this situation. As viper mentioned some photographers allow and some don't it is not up to you to decide it is for him/her.

Contracts are key, but in the case of not having one you should confront your photographer with this. Those images were shot for his/her studio not yours and you probably wouldn't be in the situation to take those images without him/her.

Also if you say that he/she will probably let you use the images then that is your best bet. If you keep the friendship alive he/she might even push a wedding your way on an overflow booking. Try not to burn bridges, even if non-intentional.

Since in the US copyright can only be transfered in writing the Chris (OP) has full rights of his pictures no matter where they were shot. Location has nothing to do with it.

A few pieces of advice I gave to 2 friends of mine who did 2nd shooting that has helped them tremendously:

1)Know your rights. No contract = you own the work no matter where it was shot.
2)Don't suffer from "picture quality self esteem".
3)Don't let anyone play the "your pics are not that good so I did not use them". This happened to both of them and later on they found out the main used all those pics and sold prints to the BG.
4)If your going to work with a main they better be one of the best in the area. What is the point of learning bad things from mediocre photogs. You are willing to invest your time for a small fee or possible even for free as a 2nd you should be getting the most back in return. After all your worth it.

Take a look at a similar situation where 2 companies hired a contractor and failed to get in writing copyright assignment of ownership of product. The contractor claimed rights to the work (as he was entitled too since he did not sign anything that gave those rights away). The companies had to settle to the tune of $500,000 each which I'm sure was a lot more than the contractor got paid (plus he probably got paid twice as well).

http://www.masslawblog​.com/?p=93

The 2 case above prove that there is no such thing as implied ownership. Even if you have an agreement it better be very detailed and outline exactly who owns what.

I've had 2 friends who were a bit soft on their stance and allowed the mains to take advantage of them.
Eventually they both woke up and after realizing that these two main photogs were no really that honest they asserted their legal rights of ownership and then they finally got paid.

I won't get into details but I will say that both did not sign an agreement and when they asked for payment the mains said the pics were not good and they did not use them. Soon after they saw the pics that were "not good" on the mains website for sale in the BGs gallery.

After they tried to reason with the main nicely they got nowhere. A simple EXIF match on the body and lens serial #s was done and the 2 friends were prepared to take legal action. The main settled privately for an undisclosed sum (you can bet it was the original fee + something on top for the bad treatment). Both of them are now doing weddings successfully (one in Cali and one in NYC).

Before this 2 incidents happened I was really relaxed about these issues and believed that most people are honest. After these happened I woke up and realized that if you walk around with your blinders on you will eventually be taken advantage off.

The OPs situation seems to be a lot friendlier than my story and I'm sure that it will have an amicable outcome. It's just nice to keep my story in mind for those times when things cannot be resolved in a friendly manner.

C.Steele wrote in post #4452432
When I started with him everything was stated up front so there were no surprises. He knew I would eventually go on my own and this wouldn't be a permanent thing. He expects it, so no worries there. The only thing we didn't talk about was the question I have now. We have a great relationship, and I know he would probably give them to me if I asked, just because I asked. But my question is - is that the RIGHT thing to do?

Everyone's too wrapped up in your business... like you said - just ask the guy. If you have nothing in writing and it was never stated you couldn't use your own images, then there's nothing wrong with using them. The polite thing to do is simply ask.

However, don't use his processed images. Only show your work.

most of this has been covered, so I'll just throw out a little more on the subject.

Look at it from the B&Gs perspective, do they want someone they didn't hire to have their images on your site? Did YOU get a model release?

If a customer sees images from the same wedding on each f our site will they be able to figure out who was the hired pro? Some pros require wording that you were hired help for the shoot.