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Thread started 10 Dec 2007 (Monday) 01:07
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A lesson in how not to do business

 
viperx27
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Dec 10, 2007 01:07 |  #1
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This may be seen as demeaning, but I think there is a lot of valuable lessons to be learned for anyone starting out, and a few good laughs for those a bit more seasoned.

http://www.fredmiranda​.com/forum/topic/59559​5/0 (external link)

Hello everyone.

I have a long story to tell and a couple of questions for those who are more knowledgeable about professional photography copyright laws and course of action to take on this matter.

My former client booked my service as packaged deal for her wedding, signed a contract and paid the retainer to keep the date. My contract stated that her balance is due two weeks before the wedding and copyrights to the photos are transfered to the client only after full payment is recieved. Her package included a bridal session which we spent over 7 hours and I shot over 1200 12megapixel RAW images. I spent another 25 hours or so in post processing, adjusting RAW files and simple editing, and burned her a DVD disc with all the high resolution JPEG files. They both were excited with the result. We went back and forth on a set of 30 selected files for advanced editing and of which she will pick one for the 24x30 canvas enlargement and framed. Upon giving her the preliminary edited files for the large print, she later called me on the phone and cancelled, saying she didn't like my editing. I calmly said Okay thats fine then. I ate up the loss because she was a co-worker's referral and I don't want to create a fuss about it.

About a month later on her wedding day, I decided to put my tux and swing by the reception venue near the end of reception night to say hi and congratulate them in person. What I saw right after entering the door was a large 24x30 art board enlargement on a nice frame of one of my bridal photo, fully retouched by someone else and no credit were given to me. I was in complete shock. Calmly, I went out to my car and came back with a 5D and immediately took RAW pictures of the offending work and some of the reception as evidence. I also spoke to another former co-worker at the door who attended the reception with other co-workers about the reason I came and what I found and that I took photos for evidence of copyright infringement. I left without talking to the ex-clients.

I called her up near midnight when she was finally home. I congratulated them and then asked her about the photo on display I saw at her reception and inquired as to who printed the picture. She said that she did it herself at Costco. I told her that she can't legally do that because she cancelled on me and did not pay for the work that I have done and that I was cool about it until I saw her using my copyrighted work at her reception. She said she already paid and I replied that she only paid the retainer required for me to block out and guarantee her the wedding date. She asked me to talk about this more when she return from a month vacation. I calmly said okay and hung up.

What upset me most is that my work is being displayed at the reception venue and the photographers whom they hired after cancelling me is taking credit for my work and no credit is given to me or at least my name or website on the artwork. I feel so violated.

Now the questions:

The ex-clients knowingly infringed on my work and did not pay for my extensive work on her bridal photos after cancelling on me a month prior. Isn't this a federal felony that warrant prison time with statutory and punitive damages? What is their minimum penalty for this?

I'm pretty sure Costco doesn't offer 24x30 enlargement on some art board. I like to believe that some Asian lab or the one affiliated with the hired photographer printed the image without the original author's authorization. Can I come after them and how much are they liable for under current copyright laws?

If you were in my place and you caught them red-handed with evidence, what course of legal actions would you take?

I want to give my sincere thanks for everyone taking the time to read into my frustration and offers to help with knowledge and advice. Kudos to my fellow pros in the business because I know how hard we work for the quality of service we provide for our clients. Thanks and have a great day.

cliff notes:

guy books wedding
shoots 7 hour bridal session
girl doesn't like images (though its probably more him for taking 7 hours) and cancels
he crashes her wedding to find his image there
he calls her at midnight on her wedding night
he wants her to go to jail/sue her and the lab she used
insanity ensues




  
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bigjon0107
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Dec 10, 2007 01:16 |  #2

Wow, just wow. I really dont know how to even come close to respond to this except laugh :lol:

He needs to realize that a retainer is just that, to hold the date...not for service. I wont pick up the camera (much less give them a CD!!!) until i am either paid in full or am a few payments into the agreed upon payment terms.

But crashing the reception, come on now, get over it already. That is like drama/behavior we had back in high school


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TTk
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Dec 10, 2007 03:48 as a reply to  @ bigjon0107's post |  #3

If this happened to me here in the UK the first thing would be to go to my acting law firm and take out a summounds for breaking copyright laws inc' costs etc, etc. Don't let them get away with this and when it go's to court (unless you know before hand) it will come out who printed it then i would take them to court for copyright as well, you took the photos, time, cost's etc so please go to court it's your right.
Mind you one thing you did do that's give them Hi/Res photos with no copyright marks across them before the wedding, here(me) they don't get any photos until after the wedding and all fee's have been paid..


Terry.:cool:
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Gary_Evans
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Dec 10, 2007 05:21 |  #4

TTk wrote in post #4474140 (external link)
If this happened to me here in the UK the first thing would be to go to my acting law firm and take out a summounds for breaking copyright laws inc' costs etc, etc. Don't let them get away with this and when it go's to court (unless you know before hand) it will come out who printed it then i would take them to court for copyright as well ............

What do you think would be the outcome will be?

I know all the legalities, copyright laws etc etc. I'm just asking, in the UK at this moment in time, what would be the result of any legal action you brought in this case?


Gary
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Robert16
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Dec 10, 2007 06:51 |  #5

:) It's the calling her on her wedding night part that gets me! As they undress, contemplating ....... their life together.. " Who was that on the phone honey?" :lol:


Robert.

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viperx27
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Dec 10, 2007 11:07 |  #6
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TTk wrote in post #4474140 (external link)
If this happened to me here in the UK the first thing would be to go to my acting law firm and take out a summounds for breaking copyright laws inc' costs etc, etc. Don't let them get away with this and when it go's to court (unless you know before hand) it will come out who printed it then i would take them to court for copyright as well, you took the photos, time, cost's etc so please go to court it's your right.
Mind you one thing you did do that's give them Hi/Res photos with no copyright marks across them before the wedding, here(me) they don't get any photos until after the wedding and all fee's have been paid..

you'd risk the reputation of your business for a couple $$$?

If his retainer doesn't even cover the cost of a bridal shoot, ho would the couple ever know, and an accountant needs to hit him over the head.




  
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viperx27
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Dec 10, 2007 11:08 |  #7
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Robert16 wrote in post #4474541 (external link)
:) It's the calling her on her wedding night part that gets me! As they undress, contemplating ....... their life together.. " Who was that on the phone honey?" :lol:

well yeah, and crashing the wedding :lol:




  
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liza
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Dec 10, 2007 11:58 |  #8
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Why did he give her a DVD without receiving payment? And he doesn't mention a contract. Why would you shoot a bridal session without a written agreement? That's just plain stupid.



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viperx27
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Dec 10, 2007 12:20 |  #9
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liza wrote in post #4476086 (external link)
Why did he give her a DVD without receiving payment? And he doesn't mention a contract. Why would you shoot a bridal session without a written agreement? That's just plain stupid.

he did receive a retainer, he just never says how much it is and what his cost of a bridal shoot is.

lots of good lessons to be learned here




  
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liza
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Dec 10, 2007 12:35 |  #10
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I read the part about the retainer, but you should never give the client a finished product without receiving payment in full. A retainer simply removes the date from availability, and although it is typically applied to the package, it isn't meant to be used to pay for product.



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Analog6
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Dec 10, 2007 12:44 |  #11

Yes, the mistake here is giving hi res photos before receiving full payment. Obviously, she received goods and though that was what she'd paid for. People sign contracts without reading them or really understanding them.
You might win some money in copurt but your name will be mud and the goodwill you lose could kill your business. From a female POV I'd hesitate to use some guy who's SUED a bride!
Retire gracefully, write it off, and tell everyone you know who went to the wedding those were actually your photos.
And never gice out hi-res photos again, unles they are watermarked.


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cdifoto
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Dec 10, 2007 12:52 |  #12

liza wrote in post #4476086 (external link)
And he doesn't mention a contract. Why would you shoot a bridal session without a written agreement? That's just plain stupid.

Third paragraph, first two sentences:

My former client booked my service as packaged deal for her wedding, signed a contract and paid the retainer to keep the date. My contract stated that her balance is due two weeks before the wedding and copyrights to the photos are transfered to the client only after full payment is recieved.

Person with issues didn't do anything wrong, except be too nice and provide full rez files.


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airfrogusmc
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Dec 10, 2007 12:58 as a reply to  @ Analog6's post |  #13

Seems to me that hes blaming someone else for his BAD business practice. When I shot weddings (before digital craze) 3/4 due on contract signing the BALANCE due upon receipt of the proof book. No exceptions. No $$$ no proofs and because I did everything ala carte and 40 8X8 or 30 10X10s photos for the bridal album were pre paid (book cover and pages were extra) it kept copy problems down to a minimum. You should never TRY to wind up in a situation with a client that would lead to this. It can only hurt business long term.




  
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Curtis ­ N
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Dec 10, 2007 13:03 |  #14

This part is priceless:

Isn't this a federal felony that warrant prison time with statutory and punitive damages? What is their minimum penalty for this?

Oh well, I guess we all learn some life lessons the hard way.


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airfrogusmc
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Dec 10, 2007 13:09 as a reply to  @ Curtis N's post |  #15

In my opinion he should have just figured out how something like this happened, take the hit and fix his business practice to try and keep it from happening again and chalk it up to a business lesson. I had something happen early on when I had my wedding business that wound up costing me some $$$. Took the hit, made the client happy, and fixed it so it never happened again.




  
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A lesson in how not to do business
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