Is flash exposure just trial & error?

richardyoung wrote in post #4595806
I looked around at the sekonic site, some of there meters are 13% and some are 18%.

Where did you see that information? Could you please provide a link.

God.. no one trust me any more.


so go here.

http://www.google.com …3Asekonic.com&b​tnG=Search

so that shows..

http://www.sekonic.com …/products_spec.​asp?ID=130
http://www.sekonic.com …/products_spec.​asp?ID=109
http://www.sekonic.com …ts/products_spe​c.asp?ID=4


they say they don't meter 18% Gray.. so what they are metering is about 1/2 away from 18% gray..

so again..

Set up.. meter.. look ( use a computer not an LCD).. adjust..do it again.. and bracket.. and be happy.. then post on photography-on-the.net.. ( the happy part is important)


so you have you have to eye ball it a little using a monitor.. or something else..

steveathome wrote in post #4595878
Where did you see that information? Could you please provide a link.

Actually if you oldsters will remember 18% grey was never really..... well, 18%.
If you were to go old school and use an actual Kodak 18% grey card, you paid a princely sum of $30 or so for an 8x10 card. But if you bought the Hanimex, or the Polaroid, or the Porters or any of the dozen or so other makers you would get a pretty wide variation in what was called 18% grey.

Meters have NEVER agreed. You can set two of them from the same production run and there will be small differences (you hope). In some ways going digital was not any different than an old manual match needle meter. You need to calibrate the meters still, calibrate your monitor, calibrate your camera etc. In strobes you get variation in voltages, output, flashtubes, UV coatings, reflectors, softboxes, umbrellas etc.

So you can bet that you will have to do some tweaking somewhere along that line. BUT, flash meters are more accurate then they ever have been in the past. But the number of varibles has actually gone up not down. It used to be that we worried about color temp, filter factors, chemical replenishment, temp shifts etc. Now we worry about monitor color, printer inks, paper variations etc.

The work flow with your meter is required, not really open to question. You cannot really do anything in studio without a meter. That old school crap about being able to eyeball an exposure is just that - crap. There are no calibrated eyeballs. You can do flash exposure without a meter, but who wants to stand around all day for that?

Les

Have we all forgotten the histogram? Having relatively small amounts of funds to devote to photographic equipment, I get my flash exposures by chimping off the histogram, and it works fine. Slow at first, but you get better and better at first guesses as you go along. So is a light meter a really nice convenience? Absolutely. Is it an absolute necessity? By no means.

Does the histogram have spot capability? Can it give split exposures for background, edge transfer with contrast ranges? I agree that a histogram is useful but for studio strobes? The correct tool for the job is the handheld flashmeter. Tell me again how the histogram will tell me the exposure differences between the subject and background in f/ stops. I actually wish the histogram could do spot exposure. In other words If I could use a wand or mouse type device to determine the actual exposure of a given area within a scene - then it would be really useful. As of know it gives me an overall exposure, not much use there.

Les

LBaldwin wrote in post #4600103
The work flow with your meter is required, not really open to question. You cannot really do anything in studio without a meter. That old school crap about being able to eyeball an exposure is just that - crap. There are no calibrated eyeballs. You can do flash exposure without a meter, but who wants to stand around all day for that?

Les

Les (or anyone)

Could you expand this please.

I'm still trying to work out why a meter is essential. I'm not saying they aren't but I've just started doing portraits with an ex-pro photographer. He owns a light meter, but we do not use it. Instead, just using a test shot to check settings and adjust if we need to.

We are only using speedlights & umbrellas for our portable studio. We don't make any money (at the moment), so if it takes 2 or 3 shots to get it right then so be it. Punters have no idea what we're doing so it never looks bad if we tweak flash power, move a light or open up. But then I've started out on this road after reading the Strobist lessons where a light meter is not used.

Maybe someone could give a lesson on light meters (Curtis?) as this topic is cropping up a lot.

If using a similar set up each time, then I would assume the Pro Tog you mention is setting up from memory. Just a guess.
I could set my lights up with the same settings used on my last shoot, and I doubt you would see much difference. Fine if a travelling portrait tog with the same set up.
I have also seen lights set up with lengths of string (for correct distance etc). If on a tight budget, fine, do whatever you need to do.

This thread started out, is flash trial and error, it took a twist early on when one stated "Trial and Error? You bet, that's exactly what it is."

My view is the more light sources you use in a shoot the more essential a meter will be, whereas the statement "See how far that gets you on a few 20,000 dollar budget shoots with 4 assistants and 20 heads" is the complete opposite view in my opinion.

Yes you can use a histogram when setting up, you could adjust camera ISO to suit ratio's (to fool readings), then take a final exposure test shot at correct ISO, but I know which method I prefer.

I think this thread has been done to death now, so happy flashing everyone.

As soon as you change ISO you change your dynamic range, and basically your whole image.. If you shoot at ISO 200.. you have less of a dynamic range than ISO 100..

Should I post a link?

steveathome wrote in post #4600628
If using a similar set up each time, then I would assume the Pro Tog you mention is setting up from memory. Just a guess.
I could set my lights up with the same settings used on my last shoot, and I doubt you would see much difference. Fine if a travelling portrait tog with the same set up.
I have also seen lights set up with lengths of string (for correct distance etc). If on a tight budget, fine, do whatever you need to do.

This thread started out, is flash trial and error, it took a twist early on when one stated "Trial and Error? You bet, that's exactly what it is."

My view is the more light sources you use in a shoot the more essential a meter will be, whereas the statement "See how far that gets you on a few 20,000 dollar budget shoots with 4 assistants and 20 heads" is the complete opposite view in my opinion.

Yes you can use a histogram when setting up, you could adjust camera ISO to suit ratio's (to fool readings), then take a final exposure test shot at correct ISO, but I know which method I prefer.

I think this thread has been done to death now, so happy flashing everyone.

richardyoung wrote in post #4600773
As soon as you change ISO you change your dynamic range, and basically your whole image.. If you shoot at ISO 200.. you have less of a dynamic range than ISO 100..

Should I post a link?

Oh dear.

I was simply offering the previous poster a work around, not preferred method. If you remember my preferred method is to use a meter, yours is to eyeball

I think your post's are getting sillier, and are maybe showing your immaturity.
You seem too keen to shoot my observations down, although other posts are in at least partial agreement with mine.

You eyeball, I'll meter.

Bye.

steveathome wrote in post #4600628
If using a similar set up each time, then I would assume the Pro Tog you mention is setting up from memory. Just a guess.
I could set my lights up with the same settings used on my last shoot, and I doubt you would see much difference. Fine if a travelling portrait tog with the same set up.
I have also seen lights set up with lengths of string (for correct distance etc). If on a tight budget, fine, do whatever you need to do.

This thread started out, is flash trial and error, it took a twist early on when one stated "Trial and Error? You bet, that's exactly what it is."

My view is the more light sources you use in a shoot the more essential a meter will be, whereas the statement "See how far that gets you on a few 20,000 dollar budget shoots with 4 assistants and 20 heads" is the complete opposite view in my opinion.

Yes you can use a histogram when setting up, you could adjust camera ISO to suit ratio's (to fool readings), then take a final exposure test shot at correct ISO, but I know which method I prefer.

I think this thread has been done to death now, so happy flashing everyone.

ahh...now I get it

I let this thread go for awhile because I honestly couldn't quite figure out what was so hard for people to understand. It appears that my first post has been misunderstood by those who lack reading comprehension skills.

I said...that meter measurements get "in the ballpark"...but it takes eyeballs to dial in an exposure after that. I never said don't use a meter...in fact, just the opposite. Where did I say don't use a meter? pfff A meter is necessary to get a photographer close to proper exposure. Then, after that, the photographer has to use his own eyes/brain/skill/exper​ience to determine if the meter reading is the proper exposure for the shot.

R Young seems to get it.....so why is this so hard for others to understand?

martinsmith wrote in post #4600483
Les (or anyone)

Could you expand this please.

I'm still trying to work out why a meter is essential. I'm not saying they aren't but I've just started doing portraits with an ex-pro photographer. He owns a light meter, but we do not use it. Instead, just using a test shot to check settings and adjust if we need to.

We are only using speedlights & umbrellas for our portable studio. We don't make any money (at the moment), so if it takes 2 or 3 shots to get it right then so be it. Punters have no idea what we're doing so it never looks bad if we tweak flash power, move a light or open up. But then I've started out on this road after reading the Strobist lessons where a light meter is not used.

Maybe someone could give a lesson on light meters (Curtis?) as this topic is cropping up a lot.

Sure no worries.

The meter can tell you crap loads of stuff if you know how to use it correctly.
Each lighting scheme may require a different technique of meter reading. It will help with
1. Point as well as broad light sources
2. Mixed lighting
3. Contrast ranges and ratios
4. Specularity issues
5. Background contrast.
6. Light loss due to diffusion, reflection and negative fill.
7. Reflected off subject or surroundings.
8. Ambient light readings combined with flash
9. Exposure diferences for different ISO's
10 Some will even give readings on color temp, footcandles, wattseconds.
11 Time exposures vs strobes.
12 Spot flash and ambient or hot light readings
13. Metering attachments that allow for wider or narrower readings etc.
14 Filter factor

Les

You've got more answers here than you thought of as questions ...

Basically, with digital, you don't need a metre. If you use Nikon SB guns you could get away quite happily with A-Auto for the main and dial in minus 1 or 2 for the fill, back or background light [as long as the main is not influencing the seconds light sensor].

Use manual control so there is no interference between the output of the lights in use, this requires the output from the flash to be modified via full, half, quarter power and or moving the flash closer or further away to match the aperture you want to use.

All flash guns have scales to distance to ƒ/stop to power ratio. It's a relatively simple matter of placing your main gun at a known distance and reading off the aperture suggested ~ it's fairly accurate, especially as a starting point. I've used tailor's measuring tapes, and some photographers use knotted pieces of string ~ in practice the exposures don't change much once setup.

But for complete freedom a flash metre becomes a desirable object, especially as one advances and one wants to use the light for dramatic effect by placing the light where its best, rather than were it best suits an aperture. I've found the string method falls down the closer one brings a light, and if employing soft boxes one may need the subject almost touching a softbox ~ a flash metre is extremely handy, though, with digital not totally necessary, once one starts to use one, however, one may not be able to work without thereafter.

Axton wrote in post #4549462
I have set up an off camera flash. 2 to be exact.

martinsmith wrote in post #4600483
Maybe someone could give a lesson on light meters (Curtis?) as this topic is cropping up a lot.

I am not the expert here, but I can give you a relative noob's perspective for anyone who is here to learn, rather than argue.

I did plenty of portraits with a low-budget setup of flash units, umbrellas and no meter. I would drape a white t-shirt over my subject and adjust the aperture until I started to get the "blinkies" on the LCD.

This system would get me pretty close on subject exposure, but that's all. It didn't help me with main/fill ratio, getting the desired amount of contrast in the shadow areas, the right background brightness, etc. The camera LCD and histogram just don't cut it for tweaking all the little details.

But through trial and error (mostly error) I gradually figured out a system of light placement, background color, background distance, etc. that would give me predictable results. It worked, as long as I didn't change any of those variables. Having a basic understanding of how light works, the inverse square law, etc. helped me get that far.

But it was not condusive to creativity or experimentation. It did not allow me to adjust for different surroundings, or try different techniques. If I ever strayed from that predetermined forumula, the result was never quite what I wanted.

But with a meter, I am much more in control and much more eager to experiment. I can add a background light, hair light, rim light or whatever, and use the meter to adjust each light for predictable results. I can setup my lights on location and get everything set before the subjects arrive, then shoot with confidence.

Please understand that there's still plenty of trial and error in the learning process. But once you learn how to use a light meter as a tool, it speeds this process dramatically.

steveathome wrote in post #4600803
Oh dear.

You eyeball, I'll meter.

Bye.

LOOK AT YOU WORK.. about 90% of it is UNDEREXPOSURED..

You can't even meter correctly.. You need to open your eyes and look at your work.

I have pictures of meters and the exif information they are just off by about a 1/3 of a stop.


You know..Sometimes I just get rushed and I don't think things overcompletely. I'm sorry.. I Richard Young ( yes that is my real name) say I.m sorry to Steveathome. I take that back, what I say when I said "he doesn't know how to meter". I was wrong. I will always admit when I'm wrong. Steve at home meters perfectly. I used to do the same thing in the past, so i understand. Since he is so great at metering and not looking at his pictures, you will notice most of his work is a solid 1/3 to 1/2 stop underexposed. Causing the white not to look pure, causing the color not to pop, as they naturally should.

So I guess the pictures are in line now to proof what I claim..

exhibit A. (left is about the correct exposure / right is your exposure)

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Les & Curtis

Thanks for taking the time to answer my question.