Which CIS Do You or Have You Used?

Which CIS Do You or Have You Used?

I've noticed that Continuous Ink Systems have changed alot in the past few years and after doing quite a bit of research, have also found that there are still two very distinct camps when it comes to them (those totally for and those totally against).

I'm wondering who has used them. Who is still using them. How long have you used them. Which brands would you definitely recommend and which you would completely stay away from. Any advice, hints, tips or special considerations you might give others looking into it. Any special techniques, procedures, paper and ink preference, etc. that might improve the overall quality and output. Along with any other information you think might be of use to those of us considering these systems.

I've been looking closely at the InkjetFly version. The price is right (ie very low) compared to others but I hesitate based on "you get what you pay for."

I agree. I've found, with the research I've been doing, that if the system works as it claims, even the more expensive systems will pay for themselves in a very short time. For me it's whether the system is going to work well, create accurate colors and that the prints won't fade in a short period of time. Plus I don't want any ink leaking into my printer (which I'm also debating over).

Sounds like we are in the same shopping mode right now. Logging in to follow this thread.

Yeah and the problem is they're too expensive to just try one and then another and another. I'm certain they won't refund your money if it's been used already...and fading is a matter of time. Two years later the print could be faded but the warranty/exchange period would have worn out.

I used the ink republic kit on Epson R800. The system is easy to install, works well and gives very nice prints (even better after having custom profiles made) Ive got prints approaching 2 years old that show no sign of fading. The only problem Ive had is when I didnt print anything for a month and the heads clogged - ended up scrapping the printer.
With regardt to Ink Republics customer service have a quick look at this thread:
https://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthre​ad.php?t=424137

John

Mastineo wrote in post #4613399
I used the ink republic kit on Epson R800. The system is easy to install, works well and gives very nice prints (even better after having custom profiles made) Ive got prints approaching 2 years old that show no sign of fading. The only problem Ive had is when I didnt print anything for a month and the heads clogged - ended up scrapping the printer.
With regardt to Ink Republics customer service have a quick look at this thread:
https://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthre​ad.php?t=424137

John

Why did you end up scraping the printer? Just because the heads clogged? Was it due to the kit you were using or for some other reason? Did that kit have the extra tank for the ink waste?

I know that the custom profiles are a must, along with monitor calibration, and that some of the companies provide quite a few for free. That is also something I will consider when purchasing a system. Did you ever have to deal with their customer service? Did you use their inks or someone elses? When did you use the system and what are you using now?

photosytes wrote in post #4611361
I've noticed that Continuous Ink Systems have changed alot in the past few years and after doing quite a bit of research, have also found that there are still two very distinct camps when it comes to them (those totally for and those totally against).

I'm wondering who has used them. Who is still using them. How long have you used them. Which brands would you definitely recommend and which you would completely stay away from. Any advice, hints, tips or special considerations you might give others looking into it. Any special techniques, procedures, paper and ink preference, etc. that might improve the overall quality and output. Along with any other information you think might be of use to those of us considering these systems.

Here is a review I wrote on my Mediastreet one for my Epson R1800:
http://www.prophotohom​e.com …php?userid=3425​2&entry=56

Works great and after a year and a half, in my longevity testing, there is still no difference in performance between the OEM inks and the Mediastreet inks.

Any CIS will require a little more fooling around than with the OEM carts, but the cost savings is something like 80% or better. I've found that with my profiles, my papers and the MS ink, I get better results than with the OEM inks and papers by a noticeable margin.

J.

What kind of fooling around are you refering to?

Have you had any problems with leaking? How does the MediaStreet CIS deal with the ink that needs to be purged if you switch from matte to photo black? I noticed Ink Republic offers an extra bottle for such things.

I've read your review during my research and know that you are extremely happy with your setup. I'm worried that some people has complained about clogging ruining their printer.

The other question I had was why are there more options for Epson printers than with Canon ones? I am debating between either Epson R1800/R2400 or Canon Pro9000/Pro9500 but having a good, reliable CIS is definitely part of my decision making process.

photosytes wrote in post #4618489
What kind of fooling around are you refering to?

Filling reservoirs, positioning tubing etc...

No problems with leaking. I purchased a waste ink reservoir from Ink Republic. On the R1800, you don't have to switch blacks, you have them both in separate reservoirs and ink jets. WHere the reservoir comes in is in the cleaning cycles which load up the pad under the head travel area after a number of cleanings. The waste ink doesn't go anywhere it is just soaked up into the sponge. The printer then says that it needs to have parts replaced (i.e. foam pad full of ink). The reservoir obviates the need for this and you then have to software reset the printer (fool it into thinking the pad was replaced) with a program to reset the counter. (also comes under the fooling around comment).

Most "clogs" are not "clogs" but bubbles. You can tell by looking at the test pattern - if the blank segments move, it is bubbles not clogs.

If you use a good ink and make sure that it is chemically compatible with the ink that is in the printer, you will not have a clogging problem any more than you did with OEM inks. This is often the quote problem by those that have never used a CIS and is the FUD (fear, uncertainty and doubt) marketing that is promoted by the OEMs.

Even so, lets say that it did clog your printer and you had to completely replace it. You would have saved enough in the first set of inks to more than pay for the printer and still have a healthy cost savings. The printer cost pales very, very quickly in the face of the ink costs.

That said, I've run through enough ink to choke a horse (mixed metaphor for sure) in my R1800 and have not had any clogging issues. I have had issues with air bubbles in the lines/head after leaving it sit for a month or two - but I had the same issues with the OEM carts too.

Two major reasons:

1. Epson does not put the print head in the cartridge ala HP's methodology. They have basically simple ink tanks that are easily duplicated functionally.

2. Epson is the 900lb gorilla in the printing business putting more printers than the other mfgs. This makes it more compelling to address their printers because there are more of them and a larger potential market for a CIS mfg.

Personally, I would not buy a printer that I couldn't get a CIS for. Printing is all about the ink and the cost of the ink with the cost of the printer being far secondary. All of the top end CIS-able printers deliver excellent output so that really isn't the issue as much anymore as it is the availability of pigmented inks and CIS.

If you do a lot of printing - more than the occasional snap shot or print large prints, then a CIS is clearly indicated.

The MS CIS is ok, and I have toyed with switching to the Ink Republic one because they claim that they have zero air bubble issues (I'm skeptical) but if true, that would be nice. However, for inks, I am a big fan of the MS inks that have performed in an excellent fashion in my printer through hundreds and hundreds of big prints. Their longevity is as good as the OEM prints and I get better results than I did using OEM profiles, inks and papers. What's not to like?

J.

Thanks for the specific answers, John. Good to know about the waste ink reservoir. How exactly do you trick it into thinking the pads have been replaced/resetting the printer?

How happy are you with the R1800? Do you print many B&W? I like the price of that printer but do print B&Ws, which the R2400 is suppose to excel at, but I'm not sure if that is worth the extra price.

Have you heard anything about the inks from Ink Republic? Good or Bad? Or other inks that could be used with either system that might be of even higher quality?

I know I just put this thread up, but I'm a little surprised that more people haven't voted. Does that mean a lot of people are using OEM carts? If so, is it the 'better to be safe than sorry' or they feel OEM carts are worth the extra price? I know if I were selling a bunch of my prints from my printer that I could add the extra cost of the OEM carts to the price but right now I'm working at getting into the field and need to use my money wisely. With the price of carts, I've been reluctant to print off too many prints just because of the expense. I would like to not only print larger prints but also more of them without selling a lung or part of a kidney.

John, do you find that 13 x 19 is large enough for you or do you still send some images off to be printed larger? I know I would love a 17"wide + printer, but can't possibly afford it right now.

I really like the R1800.

How you reset the counter on the R1800 - there is a program that you download and run it, it talks to the R1800 and resets it. See:

http://www.ssclg.com/e​psone.shtml

I don't know anything about IR inks. I did my research on the MS ones because they provided profiles for the papers I used. Now that I have done so much testing on them, I know what they do and how well they do it - so I'm set on MS at this point.

The 13x19 is pretty large. I've done larger panos - up to 13x37 although I did have trouble with CS3 and the R1800 getting the last inch printed correctly. I still need to work on that.

The cost of paper in larger printing starts to get pricey (like really pricey). On top of that, i have no place to display something that large.

I mostly seem to settle on 11x14 printing. That seems to be what I can display the best.

J.

Have some questions regarding the cost savings of CIS.

To the people who are using them, are you professionals? The reason I ask is, as a professional, I have difficulty trying to rationalize the ROI.

There was a number mentioned in one of the above posts about an 80% savings in ink costs. For the sake of argument, let's say that the cost of an 8x10 inkjet print is $1 (using Epson OEM inks and Epson Premium Luster or Premium Glossy paper, ours are actually about half again higher on our R800 and R1800, depending on what we're shooting at the time). Paper is 60 cents, ink is 40 cents. Eighty percent savings on 40 cents results in an ink cost of 8 cents. What do you sell that print for? $25? $50? $100? What is the cost of sales difference on that fifty dollar print between 40 cents and 8 cents? From my perspective, it's negligible. OEM ink too pricey? Raise the cost of your print a buck. Or two.

Now I'm not saying that if the price of a cartridge for the R1800 hit $30, I wouldn't seriously consider a CIS. However, with the availability of CIS systems, I don't see that happening.

Our PP rate is $125/hour. How long does it take to eat up that 32 cent savings? Fixed costs are essentially a non-issue.

JohnJ80, you speak of longevity. Has anyone (say, Wilhelm) independently tested these CIS inks? I'm not trying to pin your ears back, just trying to get more information. Again, as a professional, print life is very important. Two years is just a drop in the bucket. Fifty years from now I want my clients' archived prints to look as good as they did the day they came off the printer.

You say you can get superior results w/ your ink/paper/profiles over OEM. Any chance you can post examples? I know it's difficult to see minor differences online. Maybe you could describe them?

If you had put as much time into OEM consumables/profiles, would you also have a superior product?

Thx for your time.

FeXL wrote in post #4629130
Have some questions regarding the cost savings of CIS.

To the people who are using them, are you professionals? The reason I ask is, as a professional, I have difficulty trying to rationalize the ROI.

There was a number mentioned in one of the above posts about an 80% savings in ink costs. For the sake of argument, let's say that the cost of an 8x10 inkjet print is $1 (using Epson OEM inks and Epson Premium Luster or Premium Glossy paper, ours are actually about half again higher on our R800 and R1800, depending on what we're shooting at the time). Paper is 60 cents, ink is 40 cents. Eighty percent savings on 40 cents results in an ink cost of 8 cents. What do you sell that print for? $25? $50? $100? What is the cost of sales difference on that fifty dollar print between 40 cents and 8 cents? From my perspective, it's negligible. OEM ink too pricey? Raise the cost of your print a buck. Or two.

Now I'm not saying that if the price of a cartridge for the R1800 hit $30, I wouldn't seriously consider a CIS. However, with the availability of CIS systems, I don't see that happening.

Our PP rate is $125/hour. How long does it take to eat up that 32 cent savings? Fixed costs are essentially a non-issue.

I am a semi pro - I shoot both for fun and do sell quite a number of prints (kids sports). I charge about $25 for an 8x10 and $35 for an 11x14.

your analysis is flawed because of two things:

1. A great quantity of the ink that is "used" is consumed in head cleaning. The printer cleans every time it turns on, and IIRC, periodically. Estimates I have seen seen that this is over 30% of the ink. Too, the printer thinks it is out of ink well before the cartridge actually is. Some estimates I have seen say this remaining ink is in the range of 20-30%. Additionally, it often takes more than one print to come up with a final print - I don't know about you, but I do have a stack of prints that go into the recycling bin while I am perfecting the image. The cost of the ink on the print sold is not the same as your total ink cost in achieving the final print.

2. Do the math. A set of 8 cartridges cost about $88 at Atlex prices ($11 each) so 8 sets is about $720 give or take. The same amount of ink from MS is $159 or about 77% of the cost of the OEM inks at the lowest reliable retail price I have been able to find.

Finally, when you are printing large prints (including 8x10's), you will use ink colors in uneven amounts. Every time you replace a cart, the printer charges ALL the heads with ink (consumes more than cleaning). This often will drive another cartridge over the boundary to where it needs to be replaced. That means that if you are planning on doing a large print you may need to replace multiple carts before they are truly empty.

Yes. MS did testing with Wilhelm. The results are available on their website. I believe they were tested up to 50 years longevity with fading or shifting in color. Testing was stopped at that point (cost) from the discussions I have had with them.

In addition, I have done my own testing now for the last 18 months with prints from MS and prints from OEM ink on the same paper both in my west facing office window. There have been zero color shifts or fading in either print and from parts of the print that are hidden from all light. This test has ravaged any print that I have made prior to using pigmented inks and certainly from traditional silver based print chemistries. That much direct sunlight is devastating to photographs but yet both OEM and MS inks exhibit the same performance after an amazing 18 months. Most prints don't make it more than a few months without noticeable shifts and/or fading.

Difficult to post examples - the differences would not show on a web picture. What I do see when looking at the mac's colorsync profiles is slightly larger gamuts on the paper I use (Red River Polar Satin). This, to my eye, has translated into slightly more detail than the OEM prints and a more "3D" sort of look that I like.

Admittedly, I did not put all this extra effort into coming up with the OEM inks. I did process about 10 cartridge sets of prints on the OEM ink and OEM paper so I think I understand what they are capable of. When my ink costs where hitting about $200 per month, I decided I needed to do something about that - hence the investigation into the OEM inks. I also was frustrated with the cartridge changes mid print and the problems that go with that. There is a fundamental problem with the OEM carts in that they are too small, hold too little ink, and Epson doesn't try and empty them enough (there is considerable ink that remains in the Epson carts when you replace them). So, my main impetus for changing was the cost and the frustration/aggravatio​n.

I do think that if I had pursued custom profiles for the OEM inks on the OEM papers, I could also have gotten better results, but I doubt they would have surpassed what I already have (with which I am delighted). That said, the whole purpose of OEM inks and papers is so that one does not have to do this, correct?

The cost issue is compelling. When one can save enough to more than buy a new printer in the cost of 8 sets of cartridges, that seems to me to be worth it. Some may not find that to be significant, but I guess I do. My cost savings comes out to about $1500 per year.

J.