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Thread started 18 Jan 2008 (Friday) 08:05
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backups - a reminder to all

 
antonello
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Jan 18, 2008 08:05 |  #1
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the dpreview forums are down because of a hard drive failure. Now this reminds me to backup the pictures that I have on my own hard drives.

I just wanted to write this note urging the photographers in this forum to backup as soon as possible. DVDs and CDs are not reliable, better to get an external hard disk and keep it in a safe place.

let's remember what is like when the hard drive fails and all the new pictures are in it...

P.S.: the forums @ dpreview is the best part of the site, I hope that they'll be able to take the forums and the data back. I also hope that amazon will take over and start a serious (professional) maintenance from now on.


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Andy ­ Favors
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Jan 18, 2008 08:38 |  #2

I seen that, let's just hope not all is lost, as phil described it as a "catastrophic failure". But on a good note if that did happen, maybe they would update their forum.


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ben_r_
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Jan 18, 2008 09:04 |  #3

Yep, always remember to back up! I do it regularly onto DVD-RWs.


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neil_g
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Jan 18, 2008 09:07 |  #4

doh. id be suprised if they didnt have a backtup..

personally ive got a copy on my laptop, copy on my external HD and a copy on fotki..


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bryank930
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Jan 18, 2008 09:24 |  #5

How is a mechanical/magnetic disk more reliable than a CD or DVD??

Lets see...Hard drives have: Moving parts, shock sensitive (while powered on at least), ESD sensitive, magnetic sensitive, temperature/moisture sensitive.

And CD's and DVD's have what...they can be scratched?? OK, leave it in the case and put it away. It can even be under water and still be OK, magnets dont phase em, static doesnt phase em...I think you get the idea..;)


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Jethro790
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Jan 18, 2008 09:32 |  #6

bryank930 wrote in post #4729352 (external link)
How is a mechanical/magnetic disk more reliable than a CD or DVD??

I've had two hard drives melt down on me, so I hear ya.

I have a 250gb back up hard drive attached to my main machine. About 4 times a year I have a burning session (no, not THAT kind of session) and burn two copies of all my pictures on seperate DVD's. One goes in a fire proof box at the house, one comes to work with me.

This is good advice here, I was one who lost thousands of pictures becasue I was too lazy to burn them to DVD's...

Oh, and you can scratch the ever loving s*** out of a DVD and still refurbish it. DVD's are the absolute pinnacle of data storage that is available to the average consumer.


If you must know...

  
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neil_g
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Jan 18, 2008 10:23 |  #7

in all honesty it depends on the quality of the hard disk.

if its litterally just being used as a backup disk then being taken offline its going to have less read/writes and will last longer.

whichever method you choose you should have AT LEAST 2 separate copies of your data in different locations.


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Wilt
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Jan 18, 2008 10:54 |  #8

bryank930 wrote in post #4729352 (external link)
How is a mechanical/magnetic disk more reliable than a CD or DVD??

Lets see...Hard drives have: Moving parts, shock sensitive (while powered on at least), ESD sensitive, magnetic sensitive, temperature/moisture sensitive.

And CD's and DVD's have what...they can be scratched?? OK, leave it in the case and put it away. It can even be under water and still be OK, magnets dont phase em, static doesnt phase em...I think you get the idea..;)

Magnetic recording does not deteriorate over time, like the optical organic dyes that make up DVD recordings deteriorate, even sitting in a dark place!

You can power down a harddrive and it does not wear, and the magnetic recording is intact until you power up and spin it up. But if the DVD organic dyes are attacked by light or fumes even sitting in storage, nothing rescues you in that situation.


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bryank930
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Jan 18, 2008 10:55 |  #9

Thats why you use DVD-RW's that use phase change media instead of organic dyes.


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neil_g
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Jan 18, 2008 10:56 |  #10

swings and roundabouts.. having multiple different types of medium backups helps, even backing up to an online photo storage place will help as theyll have their own backup etc.


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JC4
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Jan 18, 2008 11:02 as a reply to  @ neil_g's post |  #11

Good reminder.

Apples new Timemachine, to an external drive works VERY well for daily backups. But, you still need to archive photos every once in a while. You're counting on hardware and software with harddrive only backup, since it's read/write. Its still best to burn some DVDs for archival once in a while. Store them in something fire/waterproof, or another building(work,friend..​.)


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Wilt
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Jan 18, 2008 11:13 |  #12

bryank930 wrote:
Thats why you use DVD-RW's that use phase change media instead of organic dyes.

ALL 'burned' (vs. pressed) CD/DVD USE ORGANIC DYES. The phase change is simply a different way of encoding the 1's and 0's in that media! And DVD-RW is not the way to get phase, as the below article expounds. I included key excerpt sections for brevity of reading:


From http://adterrasperaspe​ra.com …ddvd-archival-media?cp=11 (external link)

"CDs and DVDs store individual bits (encoded in various ways depending on the media) with spots of reflective and non-reflective areas. This method is called ‘pits and lands’, where pits ‘absorb’ light (ie, are ‘off’ bits) and lands ‘reflect’ light (ie, are ‘on’ bits).

"With pressed media, the pressing method causes pits to reflect the laser’s light away from the sensor, and the lands to reflect it back at the sensor. With burned media, a high energy laser causes spots of organic dye to go opaque and obscure the reflective surface for the pits, leaving the organic dye for lands alone...

"So, obviously, the next step was to produce burnable DVDs. Two separate, and incompatible, efforts took hold. The first one, Pioneer’s DVD-R (pronounced ‘DVD dash R’) was released in 1997, using different data storage methods than pressed DVDs (appearing to be more like CD-R than DVD), a poor error correction scheme, and the ‘wobble’ laser tracking system of DVD-R is inadequate for the job.

"The second effort, lead by the DVD+RW Alliance (headed by Sony, Phillips, Mitsubishi, and Thompson) was released in 2002, as an alternative to the poorly implemented DVD-R. DVD+R uses a superior ‘wobble’ laser tracking system, a far better error correction method, and the media quality itself is typically higher. (See the ‘Why DVD+R?’ section below for a more technical explanation)...

"Why archival media is hard to produce
Unlike pressed CDs/DVDs, ‘burnt’ CDs/DVDs can eventually ‘fade’, due to five things that effect the quality of CD media: Sealing method, reflective layer, organic dye makeup, where it was manufactured, and your storage practices (please keep all media out of direct sunlight, in a nice cool dry dark place, in acid-free plastic containers; this will triple the lifetime of any media)....

"Assuming that the protective seal and reflective layer are manufactured correctly, the next issue is the organic dye. The first organic dyes, designed by Taiyo Yuden, were Cyanine-based and, under normal conditions, had a shelf life of around ten years; simply, that was simply unacceptable for archive discs. Taiyo Yuden, Mitsubishi Chemicals, Mitsui Co., and Ciba Specialty Chemicals spent the next ten years trying to produce the best organic dyes, eventually reaching archive-quality CD media. ...

"DVDs also use similar dyes, however manufacturers have intentionally kept what dyes they use a secret (instead of a feature in their marketing of the media), and all blank DVDs are intentionally the same color (as different dyes on CDs make blanks different colors, however, it is not indicative of what dye is used due to some manufacturers using different colored silver alloys and non-reactive additives in the dye). ...

"As I said earlier, DVD-R sucks for data preservation for three reasons: inferior error correction, inferior ‘wobble’ tracking, and the fact its data writing methods look like an un-needed halfway point between CD-R and DVD+R. The wobble tracking I shall explain first, then the error corrections method, then the specifics of ATIP/pre-pit/ADIP optimum power settings. ...

"On a DVD+R, however, they came up with a much better method. Instead of changing the frequency of the wobble, or causing amplitude spikes in the wobble, they use complete phase changes. Where CD-R’s and DVD-R’s methods make you choose between either easy wobble tracking or easy ATIP reading, DVD+R’s method makes it very easy to track the wobble, and also very easy to encode data into the wobble. DVD+R’s method is called ADIP (ADdress In Pre-groove), which uses a phase change method. ...

"As I mentioned earlier, this wobble-encoded data includes error correction of wobble-encoded data itself. Error correction is the most important part of media, because if it does not work, then you’ve lost your data, even if there is nothing seriously wrong with the disc. ...

"In addition to the optimum power control profiles, DVD+R also gives four times more scratch space for the drive to calibrate the laser on; more space can only improve the calibration quality. So, in short, DVD+R media exists to simply produce better burns and protect your data better...

"And finally, the end of the article…
Finally, after roughly three pages of technical discussion, we arrive at the end of my dissertation on archival quality CD/DVD media. So, you’re probably now wondering, in simple terms, what media do I recommend?

"To begin with, I do not recommend CD-RW, DVD-RW, or DVD+RW media in any form for permanent storage. This is mostly a no-brainer, but those discs are meant to be able to be changed after burning, and they are simply unsuitable for long-term archival storage. I also do not recommend DVD-R media due to DVD+R’s superior error correction and burning control . "


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JC4
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Jan 18, 2008 11:23 as a reply to  @ Wilt's post |  #13

So, why don't they print that on the box? :)

Thanks Wilt, best explanation I've read on what to use and why. Of course my current stock of blanks are -R's, except for my dual-layer DVDs which are +R's.


John Caputo

  
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backups - a reminder to all
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