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Thread started 30 Jan 2008 (Wednesday) 02:02
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HS Basketball - 580EX II.

 
modemanual
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Jan 30, 2008 02:02 |  #1

2nd Day with the 580EX II, tried several bounce techniques (floor, ceiling, etc), but I think my results could be better. C&C welcomed. San Mateo vs. Burlingame, in back to back games of all the basketball teams. I had another affair from the 3rd period of Boys JV to the half-time of Boys Varsity, so I missed Girls Varsity, but will be shooting that tomm. The refs and mostly everyone did not really care for the flash and were okay with most of the positions i was at, but i usually stayed near the corners or at the sidelines. Watermarks are in place for some of them because people always take them off my site and either post them on myspace/facebook (which i don't really mind, its just the unauthorised printing that ticks me off...)

Girls JV:

IMAGE: http://omgitsacamera.smugmug.com/photos/248344750-L.jpg
350D, 1/1000, f/1,8, ISO 1600, 50mm 1,8, 580EX Fired

IMAGE: http://omgitsacamera.smugmug.com/photos/248341786-L.jpg
350D, 1/400, f/2,8, ISO 1600, 70200mm 2,8 @ 78mm, 580EX II Fired

Link:http://omgitsacamera.s​mugmug.com/gallery/424​3360 (external link)

Boys JV:
IMAGE: http://omgitsacamera.smugmug.com/photos/248321907-L.jpg
350D, 1/500, f/2,8, ISO 1600, 70200mm 2,8 @ 110mm, Flash Fired

IMAGE: http://omgitsacamera.smugmug.com/photos/248347167-L.jpg
350D, 1/500, f/2,5, ISO 1600, 50mm 1,8, 580EX II Fired, Bounced Towards the floor.

http://omgitsacamera.s​mugmug.com/gallery/424​1913 (external link)

Boys Varsity
IMAGE NOT FOUND
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350D, 1/500, f/2,8, ISO 1600, 50mm 1,8, Flash Fired

IMAGE NOT FOUND
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350D, 1/800, f/1,8, ISO 1600, 50mm, Flash Fired

IMAGE NOT FOUND
HTTP response: 404 | MIME changed to 'text/html' | Byte size: ZERO

350D, 1/500, f/1,8, ISO 1600, 50mm, flash fired.

http://omgitsacamera.s​mugmug.com/gallery/418​8955 (external link)

HULKMA.
40D (sooon!) | 50 1,8 | 70-200 2,8L Lens Coated | Speedlite 580EX II | Crumpler 7MDH
gear - smugmug (external link) - lurkbook (external link)

  
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willy ­ b
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Jan 30, 2008 02:37 |  #2

Some cools shots there, i can't comment on the flash but they to me they look ok. I quite like the last shot!


Gear List & 2012. A Photo a day. (external link)

  
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modemanual
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Jan 30, 2008 22:43 |  #3

Thanks!


HULKMA.
40D (sooon!) | 50 1,8 | 70-200 2,8L Lens Coated | Speedlite 580EX II | Crumpler 7MDH
gear - smugmug (external link) - lurkbook (external link)

  
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royv
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Jan 31, 2008 04:58 |  #4

What the hell is #5 doing? LOL


Canon 1D mark III | Canon S95 | Sigma 50 1.4 | 17-40L | 135L | 70-200 2.8L
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dmwierz
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Jan 31, 2008 05:45 |  #5

350D, 1/500, f/2,8, ISO 1600, 50mm 1,8, Flash Fired

If you are firing at 1/500s you are using HSS. If you are using HSS you are not using it as intended. HSS is not meant for action.

HSS substantially reduces flash power and increases flash duration, both of which are BAD things. Take a little time and do a search here on HSS and you'll find a TON of background on the topic.

You're clearly using the flash for fill, which if this is this is your intent, OK, but again, I question why you would be doing this.HSS and fill flash is for shooting outside in bright sunshine where you can't keep your aperture wide enough to get good background blur and subject separation.

Dennis


http://www.denniswierz​bicki.com (external link)
http://www.sportsshoot​er.com/dmwierz (external link)

Dennis "
Yeah, well, sometimes nothin' can be a real cool hand."

  
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drandtus
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Jan 31, 2008 07:11 |  #6

royv wrote in post #4821548 (external link)
What the hell is #5 doing? LOL

+1. We have to know what that kid is doing! Nice images, too. I am curious about the using of HSS. Thanks for pointing this out, Dennis.




  
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dmwierz
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Jan 31, 2008 08:29 |  #7

Here's something from a post last Fall on flash football, but it's pertinent here, also:

So, what is HSS? This is when your flash fires at a much higher speed - it actually fires a series of very high speed pulses rather than one continuous pulse. Because of this, and a few other factors, when you're in HSS mode, and running shutter speeds > 1/250s, you lose a LOT of range. See this explanation for more detail:

https://photography-on-the.net/forum/...d.php​?t=208520

HSS can work OK, but I tend to avoid it. It also lengthens recycle time for the flash, which cuts down on fps, and uses up power at a far greater rate, so your batteries won't last as long.

Quote:
-Is it possible to use the flash to compliment the stadium lighting rather than replace it?
You might think this is a good idea, however it can cause more problems than it helps. The primary reason why you want your flash to be your dominant light source is that when you use flash, the duration of the flash burst is a lot shorter than the duration that the shutter is open. The flash duration of the 580EXx, at full power, is around 1/800s. As you reduce the power, the duration goes down considerably. In other words, the flash gets faster.

Why is this important? This faster duration does two things for you. One good, one not so good.

Firstly, the good: it can stop the action better than your shutter speed. You read that right - even though your shutter is set to 1/250s, you can actually get 1/800s (or faster if running at lower than full power) worth of effective action stopping.

Now the not so good: because when your flash fires when the shutter is open it exposes the sensor to its light. This is exactly what you want to happen, and why you use the flash. However, if the ambient light is close enough to the level of the flash, you run the very real risk of getting two exposures. Your sensor exposes once for the flash at, say 1/800s, and another exposure for the ambient at 1/250s. The result of this is a sharp image at 1/800s from the flash, and a slightly more blurry one at 1/250s, superimposed on each other. Not so good. You get a "ghost" image surrounding the sharp one - VERY annoying.

For this reason, I set my flash at least two stops higher than ambient, and if I see any ghosting in my images, I either up the Flash Exposure Compensation if I'm in ETTL mode, boost the power if I'm in manual, or dial down my exposure (dial down the ISO).

That's not to say you can't "finesse" mixing flash with ambient - just be aware that when you do this you might run into ghosting, and if you see it, you'll need to know how to deal with it. Again, I normally avoid this.

Another good reason for having the flash be dominant is that you can avoid the funky white balance issues that come from the lights cycling in gyms (or even in stadiums). Here's a great discussion of light cycling:

http://www.sportsshoot​er.com/message...html?​tid=20873 (external link)

As for shooting manual (flash and camera), a trick I learned from another shooter is to shoot a series of images at various exposures (keep the aperture and shutter speed constant and vary the ISO) until you can JUST see the players - they'll look like shadowy ghosts. Leave the camera at this setting, and then turn your flash on at maybe 1/8 power, and move it up from there until your histogram shows some info on the right half. Shooting manual flash and camera can yield optimal results, but you'll need to adjust the level of your flash as the distance to your subject changes.

Quote:
I have been told that strobes are sometimes installed at facilities, especially basketball courts and I have been trying to figure out if there is a "poor man" solution that might be comparable.
Many pro and college arenas have strobes installed. These are VERY powerful and VERY expensive. Most of these are "permanent" and available only to team photogs, AP and Getty dudes and maybe SI, et. al. The rest of us are on our own.

Here are a few links with more info on this topic:

http://www.daveblackph​otography.com/...a-lighting.htm (external link)

http://www.gophotograp​hy.net/tips/lighting.h​tml (external link)

http://www.gophotograp​hy.net/tips/biglightin​g.html (external link)

A lot of us who shoot High School basketball and hockey will also install strobes temporarily (like White Lightnings or Alien Bees, for example) but even this isn't a "poor man's" solution, as it can cost a couple thousand bucks. I have had pretty good luck using my camera flashes mounted on flash stands, fired with Pocket Wizards (the most expensive part - these can be replaced with hard wiring, which is a LOT cheaper, but creates trip hazards) and found that this works remarkably well, and is very quick to set up and break down.

I have a battery-powered setup of 2 speedlites I use where I can't find electrical outlets and 2 Alien Bee 800's I use where electricity is available.

Check this out for a great discussion on using speedlites for lighting basketball:

http://strobist.blogsp​ot.com/2006/04...asket​ball.html (external link)

Hope this helps.

Dennis


http://www.denniswierz​bicki.com (external link)
http://www.sportsshoot​er.com/dmwierz (external link)

Dennis "
Yeah, well, sometimes nothin' can be a real cool hand."

  
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modemanual
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Jan 31, 2008 08:38 |  #8

royv wrote in post #4821548 (external link)
What the hell is #5 doing? LOL

#5 is doing a sideshow from the half-time...like this one...

IMAGE NOT FOUND
HTTP response: 404 | MIME changed to 'text/html' | Byte size: ZERO


Thanks for all the feedback so far

HULKMA.
40D (sooon!) | 50 1,8 | 70-200 2,8L Lens Coated | Speedlite 580EX II | Crumpler 7MDH
gear - smugmug (external link) - lurkbook (external link)

  
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drandtus
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Jan 31, 2008 09:25 as a reply to  @ modemanual's post |  #9

As for shooting manual (flash and camera), a trick I learned from another shooter is to shoot a series of images at various exposures (keep the aperture and shutter speed constant and vary the ISO) until you can JUST see the players - they'll look like shadowy ghosts. Leave the camera at this setting, and then turn your flash on at maybe 1/8 power, and move it up from there until your histogram shows some info on the right half. Shooting manual flash and camera can yield optimal results, but you'll need to adjust the level of your flash as the distance to your subject changes.

I am looking forward to experimenting with this. Thanks for the links, too Dennis.




  
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dmwierz
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Jan 31, 2008 11:12 |  #10

Here are two shots (not great shots - just took 'em to check exposure) taken prior to a game last week that demonstrate the "with and without" strobe shots. If there hadn't been a bright light in the balcony in the background, the ambient shot would have been pretty dark.

Without strobes (almost a dark frame)

IMAGE NOT FOUND
HTTP response: NOT FOUND | MIME changed to 'image/gif'

Exposure Time 1/250 sec
Aperture f/4
ISO Equivalent 640

Shot with 2 Alien Bee 800's full-power bounced off ceiling, shot immediately after the one above:

IMAGE NOT FOUND
HTTP response: NOT FOUND | MIME changed to 'image/gif'

Exposure Time 1/250 sec
Aperture f/4
ISO Equivalent 640

The fact that I've got a dark shot without the strobes and a decent exposure with them gives me a good idea I'm enough stops over ambient with my strobes to a) stop the action with the duration of the strobes - in my case, around 1/1100s - and b) eliminate the chances of a ghosting exposure resulting from ambient lighting.

http://www.denniswierz​bicki.com (external link)
http://www.sportsshoot​er.com/dmwierz (external link)

Dennis "
Yeah, well, sometimes nothin' can be a real cool hand."

  
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drandtus
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Jan 31, 2008 12:42 |  #11

Great example, Dennis. Very clear to me.

What do you trigger the bees with? I looked on their site and saw they can supply the transmitors/ recievers, but pocket wizards are mentioned more often.




  
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modemanual
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Feb 01, 2008 00:05 |  #12

So what do you think? AlienBee's for the money I get for my b-day?


HULKMA.
40D (sooon!) | 50 1,8 | 70-200 2,8L Lens Coated | Speedlite 580EX II | Crumpler 7MDH
gear - smugmug (external link) - lurkbook (external link)

  
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mattograph
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Feb 01, 2008 00:09 |  #13

Some neat stuff. Most impressed by how tack sharp these images are.

I am now going to find a public place to rub my nipples.


This space for rent.

  
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modemanual
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Feb 01, 2008 00:16 |  #14

mattograph wrote in post #4827765 (external link)
Some neat stuff. Most impressed by how tack sharp these images are.

Thanks!

mattograph wrote in post #4827765 (external link)
I am now going to find a public place to rub my nipples.

lol, just wait until next friday when we play them in their house.


HULKMA.
40D (sooon!) | 50 1,8 | 70-200 2,8L Lens Coated | Speedlite 580EX II | Crumpler 7MDH
gear - smugmug (external link) - lurkbook (external link)

  
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dsul413
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Feb 01, 2008 07:32 |  #15

Great shots! A few of the girls game look cropped too closely for my test, but the first one of the guys varsity game is my favorite by far. You see good emotion there.




  
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HS Basketball - 580EX II.
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