Looking for some more direction on basketball - ambient w/XTi, 85mm

Here are the latest in my string of frustrating basketball shots. I've been shooting at 1600, f2.2, 1/250 and just not satisfied. For this game I tried opening up another 1/3 stop to f2 so I could get 1/320ss, but it's still not enough. I think I just have to accept the fact that I'm not going to achieve what I feel is sellable quality with this camera. The 40D is in my long-range plans but not for another year at least. We have just a couple of games left - what would you like to see me work on at those games? Should I take the plunge and go down to f1.8 and 1/500? I know I need to continue to work on focus - man those little guys are a bugger to hit! I've been using the center AF point since it's said to be the strongest. There is some discussion as to whether the Ai Servo or Ai Focus is the better method. I've had better luck with Ai Focus but many others swear by Ai Servo. Which do you prefer? And I've pretty much given up on white balance - I've been either shooting auto and converting to tungsten, or just shooting on tungsten. The gym lighting is so blotchy and uneven that a CWB hasn't been successful for me thus far.

Please be gentle with me - this is my first year of basketball shooting and it's really kicking my butt!! But I do want to improve (obviously) so would like to hear your suggestions. End goal is respectably decent quality to sell in a (very) small town. No SI in my future, LOL. I did shoot a few of another team that had "real" uniforms and those did turn out a bit better (I think the shiny uniforms helped me, and the composition was a little better on those, as well, but I wanted to post these for the settings - I may post those later for comparison if you think it would help), but these t-shirts are all we've got for now. ETA: After viewing the finished post, I have to say that they are somewhat sharper IRL.

HTTP response: 404 | MIME changed to 'image/gif' | Byte size: ZERO | PHOTOBUCKET ERROR IMAGE

HTTP response: 404 | MIME changed to 'image/gif' | Byte size: ZERO | PHOTOBUCKET ERROR IMAGE

HTTP response: 404 | MIME changed to 'image/gif' | Byte size: ZERO | PHOTOBUCKET ERROR IMAGE

HTTP response: 404 | MIME changed to 'image/gif' | Byte size: ZERO | PHOTOBUCKET ERROR IMAGE

here's some quite new posts to get you started.

Aaagogo wrote in post #4863125
here's some quite new posts to get you started.

So are you saying I'm a waste of forum space, too?

??? that was a j/k to the other member...

i'm pointing to the other points that was talked about.

Aaagogo wrote in post #4863207
??? that was a j/k to the other member...

i'm pointing to the other points that was talked about.

Ok sorry, just a little sensitive these days, as I'm really frustrated with this gym lighting - it's a bugger to say the least! I think I got a little too much confidence during football season and then basketball brought me down to earth pretty darn quick, LOL.

I'm specifically interested in settings and focus suggestions. I've about reached my limits on the options I'm aware/capable of.

Flute. Don't panic. There have been reams of posts written here about indoor basketball photography. As you are discovering, this type of photography is an art, not a science. 3 Years ago, I started out with an XTi. I upgraded to a 30D about 18 months ago, and then upgraded again to a 40D about 6 months ago. I shoot mostly outdoor in farily poor light, so I can provide some insight:

1. AI Servo is what you should be using. Keep to it...
2. Based on my results and what I've read here about indoor basketball, try shooting in RAW only, and start experimenting with PP in Adobe Photoshop. That has really improved my photography.
3. With your 85mm, try to shoot only action that fills your frame. The first two images are nice, but a bit too far. From similar posts, it looks like the best stuff is shot from under the basket.
4. Invest in a monopod (if you don't already have one).
5. I would like to see you move yourself under the basket, only take pictures of action right in front of you that fills the frame, shoot in raw, and practice your PP in Photoshop.

Keep at it and don't give up...

i would assume u say 40D is in the works.. u're shooting with the XT or XTI now?

it takes a while to max out the body you are at... more often than not, it's the user and not the person.

location location location. the combo you have is a good combo

check pm

You are being too hard on yourself. Shooting indoor sports is a challenge for everybody. Your photos aren't half as bad as you think.

Keep experimenting and practicing. Sure, try 2.0 or 1.8 with the 85 to see if you can gain additional shutter speed. I shoot AI Servo and it works pretty well for me. Others shoot differently. Each to his own.

There are some gyms which push the limits of the equipment we own. It's possible that ISO 1600 is not enough for your gym. Only you can answer that.

Judging from your photos, as bad as the light may be, if you drop down to 1.8 or 2.0, you'll get the shutter speed you want with enough light. Of course, wide open shooting, presents its own DOF issues.

It's not easy, but keep shooting, practicing and experimenting. In time you'll still take many lousy photos (at least I do), but the ones that are great will start to surface more and more.

Good luck.

Thanks. I do shoot in RAW, and have already adjusted these in PP and noiseware - do they need more, and if so what? The walls look awful but I chose to sacrifice those for the sake of the color/light on the players.

Shooting under the basket with the 85 is too close - there's not enough room in the gym - but our next game is at another school so maybe I will have more room there.

The only reason I say I'm limited by the XTi is the ISO factor - at 1600 I have to sacrifice either the DOF or the ss I need to get what I feel is an acceptable exposure in that gym, and the noise is wicked even with noiseware. Otherwise I have no complaints about it. And oviously I haven't mastered it yet - that's a given.

Thank you, kidpower (and all of you), for the enouragement. I am definitely my own worst critic.

Work towards using a custom white balance using either a gray card or an Expo disk. THis will greatly improve the overall color and correct your exposures

AS I've been going down the dungeon gym basketball road, this has been one of the single biggest improvements (custom WB) and it save lots and lots of post processing time

The 40D is a nice camera but it won't make your pictures any better.

As far as settings, AI servo, center point only, manual mode, custom white balance and RAW if shooting with ambient light.

Here are somes you can do.

1. Composition and timing - you need to get faces the ball in the shot. Shoot from the baseline.

2. White balance - get a gray card or an expodisc and get the white balance right so there isn't a color cast.

3. Light - Shooting with ambient light doesn't produce great photos in dimmly light gyms. The colors just don't pop and there is a noise issue at iso 1600. In addition, shooting at f2.0, the depth of field is razor thin. Not much of the picture is going to be in focus and you are asking a lot of the autofocus system and your own skils to get the right part of the image in focus.

I started like you shooting ambient but have since moved to off camera strobes. Even one 580 on a light stand bounced off the ceiling should get you to iso 800, f2.8. Two strobes can get you to iso 400 f2.8 or iso 800 and f4.0. By the way, inexpensive strobes like the Vivitar 285 work just fine.

Take a look at these sites for suggestions from professional photographers. The money spent on lighting is better than upgrading your camera.

http://strobist.blogsp​ot.com …ment-prep-basketball.html
http://www.gophotograp​hy.net/tips/lighting.h​tml

Good luck with your basketball shooting.

David

flute4peace wrote in post #4862982
Here are the latest in my string of frustrating basketball shots. I've been shooting at 1600, f2.2, 1/250 and just not satisfied. For this game I tried opening up another 1/3 stop to f2 so I could get 1/320ss, but it's still not enough. I think I just have to accept the fact that I'm not going to achieve what I feel is sellable quality with this camera. The 40D is in my long-range plans but not for another year at least. We have just a couple of games left - what would you like to see me work on at those games? Should I take the plunge and go down to f1.8 and 1/500? I know I need to continue to work on focus - man those little guys are a bugger to hit! I've been using the center AF point since it's said to be the strongest. There is some discussion as to whether the Ai Servo or Ai Focus is the better method. I've had better luck with Ai Focus but many others swear by Ai Servo. Which do you prefer? And I've pretty much given up on white balance - I've been either shooting auto and converting to tungsten, or just shooting on tungsten. The gym lighting is so blotchy and uneven that a CWB hasn't been successful for me thus far.

Please be gentle with me - this is my first year of basketball shooting and it's really kicking my butt!! But I do want to improve (obviously) so would like to hear your suggestions. End goal is respectably decent quality to sell in a (very) small town. No SI in my future, LOL. I did shoot a few of another team that had "real" uniforms and those did turn out a bit better (I think the shiny uniforms helped me, and the composition was a little better on those, as well, but I wanted to post these for the settings - I may post those later for comparison if you think it would help), but these t-shirts are all we've got for now. ETA: After viewing the finished post, I have to say that they are somewhat sharper IRL.

HTTP response: 404 | MIME changed to 'image/gif' | Byte size: ZERO

HTTP response: 404 | MIME changed to 'image/gif' | Byte size: ZERO

HTTP response: 404 | MIME changed to 'image/gif' | Byte size: ZERO

HTTP response: 404 | MIME changed to 'image/gif' | Byte size: ZERO

Thanks! The knowledge base here is unmatched, and I consider it a priviledge to even lurk, LOL.

Thanks for those links, David! Definitely something to think about for next year. I can just imagine the looks I would get walking into these po-dunk middle school gyms with all that gear.

flute4peace wrote in post #4865508
Thanks for those links, David! Definitely something to think about for next year. I can just imagine the looks I would get walking into these po-dunk middle school gyms with all that gear.

You're welcome. One other thing about white balance, photograph the gray card using 1/60 second. The gyms lights often cycle and change color during the cycle. By shooting the gray card at 1/60 you get a complete cycle in the photo.

If you absolutely have to shoot ambient, then

1. shoot raw
2. iso 1600, manual, f2.0, 1/400 sec (min shutter speed to reasonably stop the action)

The image mage be underexposed 1/3 of a stop. During the RAW conversion adjust the exposure. Essentially, you are pushing the camera to iso 2000 or above. Get Noise Ninja or Neat Image for removing the noise.

David

dschach wrote in post #4865625
You're welcome. One other thing about white balance, photograph the gray card using 1/60 second. The gyms lights often cycle and change color during the cycle. By shooting the gray card at 1/60 you get a complete cycle in the photo.

David

That right there is worth the price of admission. I have a gray card and I'll definitely be trying CWB with it this coming weekend. Thanks so much! Where do you recommend I place the card? Last time I tried it, I was off the court and that didn't work at all. I pretty much need to be in the field of play, right? But should I shoot it on the floor, or have a kid hold it for me?

I do shoot RAW and this last batch were 1600, f2.0 and 1/320. I already brought them up between 2/3 and just under a full stop, depending on the cycle the lights were in. I also ran them through noiseware but just at the default setting. I will try to up the ss to 1/400 this weekend and see if it makes a difference (although we'll be in a different gym).

I do agree that ambient is a no-win situation, at least in this gym and with the 1600 limitation. I did attempt a bit with my flash (Sigma DG500 Super) early on, but gave up on that pretty quick and decided to try to master ambient first. Should I re-think that? I also have a Sunpak 383 Super non-TTL flash.

Thank you again! This is why I keep coming back here!

Have a kid hold the card upright at chest height. I shoot mostly when they are in the key. I suggest having them stand at the top off the key. Shoot the card from the baseline.

Here is a link to some flash photos of fifth grader basketball players. The ambient light is iso 1600, f2.0, 1/320. I had a single 580 flash mounted on the camera on manual, full power, bounced off the ceiling for two shots and the 580 mounted on a light stand for another. With that I got iso 800, f 2.8 or two stops above ambient.

http://photoschach.smu​gmug.com/gallery/42114​14/1#251667943

David