Flash vs. ambient light...more questions.

I've been reading the recommendations and tips here and over on shootsmarter (can't reach strobist from here, for some reason), and had a couple questions about how shootsmarter recommends having the ambient light 1 - 1.5 stops below the flash. Then, on here I see the stuff from Curtis, Neil, and others talking about entirely different methods.

I know that experience is the best teacher, I'm just looking for some general baselines to go by (like the shootsmarter recommendation above). I'm also looking at upgrading to the 580EX II from the 420EX. I use flash rarely (mostly shoot birds/landscape/outdoo​r sports), but the few times I've used it (420EX), it's blown out the shot entirely (indoors candid shots).

How feasible is the shootsmarter tip for general photography? Is it a studio-setting-only sort of thing or would it work similarly in public? Is it possible to do something like that with the 420EX, and if so, how, short of tons of test shots that I'm NOT going to be able to get the kids to sit through?

I've got family requesting that we do some photos when I'm back on vacation and I want to make sure that I've got all my ducks in a row when I go back...

mnealtx wrote in post #4969658
I've been reading the recommendations and tips here and over on shootsmarter (can't reach strobist from here, for some reason), and had a couple questions about how shootsmarter recommends having the ambient light 1 - 1.5 stops below the flash . Then, on here I see the stuff from Curtis, Neil, and others talking about entirely different methods.

I know that experience is the best teacher, I'm just looking for some general baselines to go by (like the shootsmarter recommendation above). I'm also looking at upgrading to the 580EX II from the 420EX. I use flash rarely (mostly shoot birds/landscape/outdoo​r sports), but the few times I've used it (420EX), it's blown out the shot entirely (indoors candid shots).

How feasible is the shootsmarter tip for general photography? Is it a studio-setting-only sort of thing or would it work similarly in public? Is it possible to do something like that with the 420EX, and if so, how, short of tons of test shots that I'm NOT going to be able to get the kids to sit through?

I've got family requesting that we do some photos when I'm back on vacation and I want to make sure that I've got all my ducks in a row when I go back...

shootsmarter recommends having the ambient light 1 - 1.5 stops below the flash . If i understand what you're trying to say, I think you have this backwards.

can't reach strobist from here Really? does this link work for you? http://www.strobist.bl​ogspot.com/
Between strobist and the stuff posted in Curtis's sig, There is a wealth of knowledge.

I'm also looking at upgrading to the 580EX II from the 420EX. I have both and it's like night and day. Manual controls on the 580 are great. Highly recommended.

Nossir, that's exactly what was recommended. The example given metered ambient at f/4 and set the camera at f/5.6, which, if I understand correctly, forces the flash to be dominant, right?

mnealtx wrote:
can't reach strobist from here

azpix wrote:
Really? does this link work for you? http://www.strobist.bl​ogspot.com/
Between strobist and the stuff posted in Curtis's sig, There is a wealth of knowledge.

Nossir, can't reach it from here (I work overseas with the military). Nothing on blogspot comes up, it just times out.

mnealtx wrote:
I'm also looking at upgrading to the 580EX II from the 420EX.

azpix wrote in post #4969724
I have both and it's like night and day. Manual controls on the 580 are great. Highly recommended.

It seems like it would be a LOT easier to work in many respects, that's for sure.

strobist has some very good useful info.. take a look at that.

fiveFPS wrote in post #4969844
strobist has some very good useful info.. take a look at that.

That would be great, if I could REACH strobist from over here... blogspot sites don't come up on the .mil network, they time out.

mnealtx wrote in post #4969871
That would be great, if I could REACH strobist from over here... blogspot sites don't come up on the .mil network, they time out.

Tried a proxy?

Not only are proxy sites blocked, trying to access one would have not-good consequences on my employment, if ya know what I mean...

You should move.

Yeah, but then we're back to that whole employment thing....

Meh. It's over-rated.

mnealtx wrote in post #4969756
Nossir, that's exactly what was recommended. The example given metered ambient at f/4 and set the camera at f/5.6, which, if I understand correctly, forces the flash to be dominant, right?

If the ambient light metered at f/4 for the proper exposure and then you added flash on top of that, wouldn't the shot become over-exposed with the combined lighting unless you reduced the ambient a little? Under low ambient lighting and if the camera is in Tv or Av mode, the camera will automatically reduce the ambient exposure when the flash is turned on. But if you're in manual mode, you'll need to manually adjust the ambient exposure yourself when using a flash.

Another reason for reducing the ambient exposure is to darken the background a little so that the main subject lit by the flash stands out more, especially if the background is busy.

The settings i use will vary depending on the situation. But for a typical wedding reception when I am shooting candids I do as you stated, I keep ambient 1 to 2 stops under exposed and flash properly exposing. Typically in a dark-ish reception hall the ambient is low enough that I would have to crank the ISO all the way to 3200 and open the aperture up all the way to get a reasonable shutter to expose the ambient properly. Forturnately with flash I can have it expose my subjects properly if they are within range of the flash. But if you use flash as a main light source in a big reception hall and underexpose the ambient by, lets say 6 stops, then the image will come out looking like you were shooting in a cave where the subjects are harshly lit and the background appears pitch black. So a decent setting is to bring the ambient up to where it is visible for a more natural looking image. But by having it under a little it will help the subject pop a little and give it more separation from the background. it'sa fine balance but once you find it your images will stand out from the typical point and shoot look that most everyone else will be getting.

mnealtx wrote in post #4969658
shootsmarter recommends having the ambient light 1 - 1.5 stops below the flash.

That's a pretty general statement. Can you give us a link so we can read it in context?

mnealtx,
I had the 420ex (I burned it out) and the 580ex and I didn't notice the 420ex over powering my photos any more then my 580ex.
The improvements I noticed was: full manual controls (an excellent feature) and stronger power.
But not an improvement on exposures

If you really want help in flash photos tell us more on how you used it ex. what mode was camera in? M, Av, Tv, P What metering mode were you in? You could post an example photo with full Exif that will also help.

You should be able to get great results for portraits and occasional use with your 420ex

Ambient vs Flash exposure really depends on which you want to be your main light source. If the flash will be then you need to be under ambient to get rid of any ghosting (if the subject is moving at all) and color casts from lighting if shooting indoors (a CWB will go a long way to help that as well). If ambient is your main source then you'll basically be using the flash for fill only and being under ambient is not really as much of an issue. se. One technique to read up on is dragging the shutter where you use slow shutter speeds to expose for backgrounds and the flash to expose for the subject. You can produce some very nice images doing this especially when shooting low light. It's kind of a modified fill flash technique IMO.