on site printing and sales?

I ssearched, and found a few threads couple years old that touched on this, but nothing specifically.

I am looking to maybe get into ok site printing for sporting events and the like. Does anyone here do this? I have looked around a different printers, and it seems like Shinko is the way to go, but expensive. I was thinking about maybe going with a cheaper older kodak or something to test the waters.

My plan is to contact bicycle race promoters, ask them if I can come shoot and sell on site, and I'll go shoot and have an assistant printing/pping/collect​ing money.

Anyone have any experiecein this area and care to share?

Yes, I do onsite printing at some larger events where it's most likely to be worthwhile.

Don't spend a lot on a high speed printer initially. Get an inexpensive inkjet that can do three sizes (4x6, 5x7 and 8x10) of glossies and make do with that while you try on the business model. Later, if sales justify it, then consider a faster and more expensive method.

In general, we only offer onsite services at events big enough to need a team of two photographers or more to do them justice. Otherwise, onsite sales aren't sufficient to make it worthwhile.

One problem with onsite sales is that you either need a couple computers and a server to allow people to browse through the photos on-screen, or you need to print out thumbnails of everything as you go for them to peruse. Either one is pretty expensive and it's all done on spec, you have no assurances of sales as a result. It also displays all your bad shots that you'd normally trash, right alongside the good ones. There's usually no time to edit, do color balancing, cropping, adjust exposure, etc.

We charge $1 to $2 extra for the same image sold onsite, compared to what our customers can buy the same size print for online. And those cheaper online images have been edited, optimized, sharpened, adjusted and cropped for much higher quality.

The extra charge is to offset the cost of supplies and having an assistant there to do the work. Even if the assistant is a relative, you will end up buying them lunch or paying their gas or something, in exchange for their services. A really skilled and knowledgeable assistant usually won't be cheap!

Not that you shouldn't do it. Just be aware that there are some shortcomings and check it out very thoroughly in advance.

There are some other important things to consider:

Is there direct competition? If so, what's their quality and workflow like? Can you match it or exceed it? Even if it's poor, they will siphon off some of your sales! Will there be a price war between you and them, to both of your detriment? Some or all these factors can dilute your sales to the point it not worthwhile to go and set up.

So, what to do about that?

Can you get a signed agreement of exclusivity from the event organizer? We simply will no longer do non-exclusive gigs. It's are just not worth the effort and there are plenty of events around who we can work with to everyone's benefit. Our agreement also assures the organizer of our commitment, so it's a two-way street. There can also be serious safety concerns, with too many competing photographers tripping over each other, all trying to get the best angle and shot.

A good organizer will also help you market and promote at the event. If there is a premium or event flyer, hopefully they will print your name and website in it. If there is a participant's packet, hopefully they will let you stuff a business card or flyer in each one. If there is an announcer, hopefully you can get your services announced occasionally throughout the day. If there is a website associated with the event, hopefully they will agree to put a link on there to your photo galleries, as a convenience for their participants.

Do get a big banner or sign to help people find your services onsite. Do this even if you aren't printing onsite and it's only a self-service table with business cards, samples and perhaps catalogs of thumbnails from previous events.

Another thing to discuss with the organizer is to try to get modeling/property releases signed by all participants. Arranged in advance, perhaps this can be part of their usual signup process, when they are getting participants to sign injury waivers and other legal docs anyway. Having a release is important if you ever want to use any of the photos in your portfolio or other self-promotion, or sell some for stock, or for any other commercial purposes. A release allows you to leverage your photos as additional income sources. It's also good practice for the organizer to help you get signed releases. They may want to put some of your photos on their website (which I offer at no charge so long as they give me proper credit... and a link). You do need to get a copies of the signed releases, not leave them in the custody of the organizer. Match the releases up with the photos and protect them like gold. There's likely future sales potential in there, so long as you have the release!

Private parties snapping away are your competition, too. But, you can never stop private parties from bringing their own cameras. However, you can ask to be the only professional/commercia​l service sanctioned to work the event. And, you may get exclusive access that the private parties don't enjoy, or bring more professional equipment to produce higher quality that most private parties simply can't match.

For the best quality under difficult, I shoot RAW. There's no time for proper RAW conversions so whenever we print onsite it means printing RAW + JPEG. Your 10D can't do that (well, there's a software kluge, but it's not easy enough for an onsite assistant to handle). It can only shoot JPEGs or RAW. That's the main reason my 10D is now a backup camera to a pair of 30Ds I use for most event shooting where we are doing onsite printing.

Some event photographers use the "spray and pray" technique. They switch their cameras to the highest possible frame rate and hold the shutter button down most of the day. One organizer I work with had a fit when another photographer with a D2Xs presented her with 8000 unedited images! No kidding! She fired him and hired me five time last year precisely because I don't do this. Instead I deliver 200 to 800 high quality, edited images after a typical event.

Hope this helps!

Thank you for the response!

I am looking at getting a Kodak 1400, I know it's old, but they still have good prints from what I hear, and I can get a brand new one for $250. Then prints are about $2, consistantly. I am looking at doing 8x10s onsite at biking events, races, etc. I always shoot RAW on my 30D, with my 10D as a backup, and I'm looking at using Lightroom as my quick editor/printer.

I am going to get my wife a little more up to speed in Lightroom, and between my MacBook Pro, her MacBook, and external monitor, the Kodak 1400, and all my camera gear, and the possibility of another photographer friend to shoot and maybe help at the table.

I see it as I already have most of the gear, minus the printer, and if I sell prints for $15, I'll make that back in 25 sales, so even if it doesn't work out, it'll basically be a wash. If things go well in the next 6 or so months, I can get a dedicated iMac and better printer, if they don't, they don't.

I am still working on workflow, how to display the images, etc., but I have a rough idea.

If you have any other pointers or helpful hints, I'm open to everything!

Yes, thought of a couple more things...

One pointer actually reiterates what I already wrote... Shoot JPEGs for onsite printing. That way no one else is messing around with your RAW files (even your wife!). It's a lot faster and speed is everything. At a moderate size event (mostly equestrian) we often shoot as many as 3000 images a day between two photographers. There just isn't time to be doing RAW conversions.

But, I want the RAW files for later, so that I can do a better job on the images for the online galleries, and just in case something is worth selling for stock (most agencies want 50MB TIFFs), or in case a customer orders a particularly large print. That's why I got the second 30D, so both my cameras would be able to do RAW + JPEG easily.

You can try RAW only, but I think you'll be coming back to JPEGs after the first event or two. Your 30D can handle it, if you usually just shoot with one camera. Our events are dusty, so we really need two cameras to minimize lens changes.

I'm afraid I'm not familiar with the Kodak 1400. We use a couple Epson 200/300 or whatever. We wore one out last year and it only cost $94 to replace it. We've had emergencies when we ran out of ink at an event 120 miles from home, so it was good we could run to a local store and buy more quite easily. We always take lots of extras. But a couple huge orders (and some issues the Nikon shooter was having with her cameras and wasting a lot of ink and paper over) wiped out even the extra supplies we'd brought. Our assistant found a local store in the small town where we were shooting that had the right inks, fortunately.

Get a pop up tent of some sort for some shade and in case of rain. I suggest a white tent (we use a green one and I hate it) because any color will make it hard to work with images with any degree of color accuracy. Even with a tent, try to set up in a shady area anyway, if at all possible.

I will heed your advice about the JPEG, but can I download both to a lightroom library? I have never done RAW+JPEG. I guess I can figure that one out for myself.

I already have an easy up, and was planning on using that already. For power, I am thinking a small generator, with 100'-200' of heavy duty extension cord and an APC Battery backup power conditioner. This is in case I am at a place without power, I will always have my own.

As for ink, I plan on always having MORE than enough, the Kodak comes in 50's, and the nice thing about it is that its dye-sub, so 50 sheets of paper, uses a 50 sheet ribbon of ink, every time. no clogged inkjet nozzles, no changing individual ink cartdridges, or any of the other problems associated with inkjet printers.

I dont shoot bike races, but a friend of mine does - I prefer runners but the workflow is pretty much the same.

Shoot JPEG and learn how to nail your exposure.
Shoot one frame of each rider
Dont print inkjets - buy a dyesub. Why would someone pay you for a print on the same kind of machine they have at home?
Dont expect to sell a lot on the day. Race finishes and people want to go and shower.
Do set up a way of selling online
Dont expect to retire on one income stream

Gary makes some good recommendations:

Shooting JPEG-only might be a good idea, so long as your lighting is good. The events I'm shooting are often in very tricky lighting, so RAW is a lifesaver for me. It might not be as necessary for you.

Also, if all you ever plan to do with the photos is offer prints to the participants, JPEGs will probably be fine. They're also adequate for online posting and most print media.

However, if you ever want to "leverage" your business with other uses of the same photos - to develop that second or third income stream from them that Gary alluded to - RAW is often better. Secondary uses might be stock photography or products like posters or calendars that you produce yourself. There's a catch to doing this, though: You'll need a signed model release from any recognizable participants, to make commercial use of the images (more on this below). The reason RAW is desirable is simply because advertisers, their agencies and stock photo agencies that supply them all still tend to look for a minimum 50MB TIFF file or larger. That's pretty easily done with a RAW file from just about any 8-10MP or better camera, but a lot more difficult to make from a JPEG. So, depending upon whether or not you ever plan to use the photos in other ways, this may or may not be important to you.

I was only recommending to use an inkjet while you are trying the business on for size. Gary is right, dye sub would be better in the long run. Photo quality inkjet printers are cheap to buy and some models are easy to get supplies for almost anywhere. However, dye sub is definitely better for the long haul and higher volume and - although more expensive initially - it will be cheaper and more efficient to operate over time. Dye sub are also usually faster.

Agreed, your best customers onsite the day of the event will probably be family and friends of the participants. The participants themselves are more likely to buy online later. There are various ways to set that up:

1. Set up your own site and fulfill orders yourself. Probably the main hurdle here is that you really need to be set up to accept payments online... usually by credit card. There's significant cost involved in being able to accept credit card payments. It can also be overwhelming to try to fulfill a large number of orders in a short period of time, plus pack them and get them shipped.

2. Use one of the free websites like Flikr or Shutterfly. The problem with these is that the print quality can be pretty poor because it's so highly automated (at least it was when I used one of the above in the past), plus anyone can look up the prices and compare them with what you are charging, so your markup is known right down to the penny. There's also a question of professionalism, if these sites give the image you want to portray. And, copyright infringement may be a problem. Check their terms of service carefully for words like "royalty free" and "creative commons license" and at least know what you are signing up for, before you post images on any site.

3. Use a web host that specializes in event photography. I use Printroom.com and have been generally happy with their service and quality. There are a number of these. Printroom happens to be located close to me, so my customers get their prints quickly and efficiently. It costs me $99 a year to maintain a commercial account there. They accept credit cards, handle sales tax and shipping costs, print and ship, then deduct an amount from my charges for each print sold, sending the remainder to me as my clear profit. For example, I charge $7 for a 4x6, over $5 of which is profit. Larger sizes and specialty items are not as profitable as a percentage of the price, but are more-so in dollar terms. Printroom is also very supportive of retained copyrights. There are notations on the site, especially when entering image galleries, and stamped right on the back of every print that's shipped out.

Another useful thing for the type of event you are considering is race number recognition software. This is used to match up the participant's number their name, for easy searching and locating within all the photos you shoot at the event. It's a nice, added feature of some of the better specialty sites. Printroom has it. There's an extra charge for it. There's a bit of a hub bub about this sort of software right now, because some guy has patented it. He apparently reached an undisclosed settlement with Printroom, that now allows them to use it. He has lawsuits pending against some other similar sites.

Regarding model releases. These really aren't needed when shooting "memento" photos for the participants. Nor are they required when you post the images on your website as thumbnails, offering them for sale to the participant, their friends and families.

However, if you might ever wish to use some of the photos in other, commercial ways - including self-promotion and marketing, such as a large illustration on your website or flyers you hand out at events - a model release becomes very important.

So, how do you get one? Well, I recommend working with the event organizer. First, let them know that they can pick and choose from among your photos for use on their website or in their marketing materials, and you will donate the images to help them out. This builds your relationship with them, of course. And, by supporting them you are helping to insure more work in the future.

But, there's a hidden catch. In order for them to use the photos in the various commercial ways they imagine, there's that pesky model release requirement again.

So, it behooves the organizer to try real hard and help you get releases from all their participants! They can very simply make it a mandatory part of the participant sign up packet, to be signed right along with the injury waivers, etc. You just need to put together a good release, with your company name on it, and provide it to the organizer. Then be sure to collect them all and keep them on file with the images. The event organizer doesn't need to keep a copy, but they would be the very first one sued over any image they used commercially without a signed release on file with you.

As a courtesy, if using someone's image, send them a free print, or a free calendar, or a copy of the magazine in which it appears. This can be the "consideration" mentioned in many releases. My "release" says "Permission to Photograph" at the top, then "Modeling Release & Property Release" in smaller letters right under that.

Finally with respect to model releases, it's also possible to get them after the fact, although it can be difficult to identify and contact participants. Considering that a memento photo might net you $5 or $10 or maybe even $25 profit, leveraging with stock photo sales, for example, can be a real bonus. Stock sales can be $100, $1000 or $10,000 per occurance. Over their lifetime, some individual stock photos are worth $50,000, $100,000, $500,000 and even more to the photographers who took them. So, yes it can be worth the "hassle" to get that release!

Cheers!

Wow, thanks everyone for all the input!


After further research, asking here and other places, I think I am going to put this of for awhile. I have some other things on the horizon, and I am going to persue them right now instead. Your information has been very helpful to me, and when I come back to this, I will definately use this info. Thanks!