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Thread started 08 Mar 2008 (Saturday) 16:53
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Warning if you shoot cheerleaders

 
Mike ­ R
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Mar 08, 2008 16:53 |  #1

I was at a large competition, held at a University. I received a large order for prints which included shots from 3 middle schools and one HS. All the schools were in my state but the person who placed the order was in another state.
If he ordered form only one school, I may have thought he was a relative but I was suspicious that the order was from multiple schools.

I called his home and the woman who answered was polite and said she would take a message. When I explained why I called, she got anxious and in a raised voice kept saying "I know nothing about it" then she said she would have him call me and she hung up.

I canceled the order. I feel that this person has no right buying photos of young girls cheerleading. I may have lost a large sale but I'll sleep well tonight.

I know a lot of us don't work with releases because of the size of the competitions, So look at everything before filling an order.


Mike R
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Gatorboy
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Mar 08, 2008 19:01 |  #2

You don't need a release -- unless you are using the images in some advertisement.


Dave Hoffmann

  
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mr_e
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Mar 08, 2008 20:25 |  #3

For commerical use (aka selling them (under most circumstances)) you do

@ the OP, that is sketchy, wonder what the guy wanted them for...


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cdifoto
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Mar 08, 2008 20:37 |  #4

mr_e wrote in post #5075816 (external link)
wonder what the guy wanted them for...

Gee I wonder. :lol:

On a serious note, there's an NCAA rule that prohibits selling images of athletes to persons that are not associated with the school in some way, or so I was told by a Division III Athletics Director. In response, I set up my website to require an email address associated with the school...ie parents would have to use their student-athlete son/daughter's school provided email address to order prints. Other persons associated with the school would also have an email address provided by that school as well - professors, coaches, staff, etc...ie anyone that NCAA rules allow to purchase the images. To ensure that the email address is legitimate and/or that the person using it has access to it, the customer cannot log into their account on my website without the password supplied to the email address by my ordering system. That satisfied the NCAA, so it satisfied me as well.


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Mike ­ R
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Mar 09, 2008 12:11 |  #5

cdifoto wrote in post #5075865 (external link)
On a serious note, there's an NCAA rule that prohibits selling images of athletes to persons that are not associated with the school in some way, or so I was told by a Division III Athletics Director. In response, I set up my website to require an email address associated with the school...ie parents would have to use their student-athlete son/daughter's school provided email address to order prints. Other persons associated with the school would also have an email address provided by that school as well - professors, coaches, staff, etc...ie anyone that NCAA rules allow to purchase the images. To ensure that the email address is legitimate and/or that the person using it has access to it, the customer cannot log into their account on my website without the password supplied to the email address by my ordering system. That satisfied the NCAA, so it satisfied me as well.

Thanks for the info


Mike R
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asysin2leads
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Mar 09, 2008 13:21 |  #6

cdifoto wrote in post #5075865 (external link)
Gee I wonder. :lol:

On a serious note, there's an NCAA rule that prohibits selling images of athletes to persons that are not associated with the school in some way, or so I was told by a Division III Athletics Director. In response, I set up my website to require an email address associated with the school...ie parents would have to use their student-athlete son/daughter's school provided email address to order prints. Other persons associated with the school would also have an email address provided by that school as well - professors, coaches, staff, etc...ie anyone that NCAA rules allow to purchase the images. To ensure that the email address is legitimate and/or that the person using it has access to it, the customer cannot log into their account on my website without the password supplied to the email address by my ordering system. That satisfied the NCAA, so it satisfied me as well.

Very good piece of information to have. Thanks for the info.


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JWright
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Mar 10, 2008 16:16 as a reply to  @ asysin2leads's post |  #7

cdifoto wrote in post #5075865 (external link)
Gee I wonder. :lol:

On a serious note, there's an NCAA rule that prohibits selling images of athletes to persons that are not associated with the school in some way, or so I was told by a Division III Athletics Director. In response, I set up my website to require an email address associated with the school...ie parents would have to use their student-athlete son/daughter's school provided email address to order prints. Other persons associated with the school would also have an email address provided by that school as well - professors, coaches, staff, etc...ie anyone that NCAA rules allow to purchase the images. To ensure that the email address is legitimate and/or that the person using it has access to it, the customer cannot log into their account on my website without the password supplied to the email address by my ordering system. That satisfied the NCAA, so it satisfied me as well.

I'm wondering if the NCAA rule even applies in this case. You mentioned the images were of middle school and high school cheerleaders and that the competition only took place at a university. Any families or relatives of the competition participants would not likely have an e-mail associated with the university where to competition took place.

I think the NCAA rule is designed to protect student atheletes at the college level and would not apply here.


John

  
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cdifoto
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Mar 10, 2008 16:39 |  #8

JWright wrote in post #5087678 (external link)
I'm wondering if the NCAA rule even applies in this case. You mentioned the images were of middle school and high school cheerleaders and that the competition only took place at a university. Any families or relatives of the competition participants would not likely have an e-mail associated with the university where to competition took place.

I think the NCAA rule is designed to protect student atheletes at the college level and would not apply here.

I missed that part about it being HS kids. I'm sure there's a similar rule in place at the HS level so you'd simply replace "NCAA" with the acronym for the appropriate state school's athletic association, assuming it's state. In my case it'd be the PSAC. If it's a private school, I'm sure that school or private schools in general have their own governing boards for athletics as well. Even if legally permitted, I'm not fulfilling an order for HS or college prints to some random unrelated Joe Blow 6 states away, let alone another country altogether. Can't say I'm sure how my system would be effective or how I could make it effective at the HS level, but I only photographed that stuff once.


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Mike ­ R
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Mar 10, 2008 20:30 |  #9

My biggest dilemma is if I should notify the authorities. He did nothing illegal ordering the prints BUT what else is he downloading. The woman who answered the phone sounded as if something is up.


Mike R
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lovebugg
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Mar 10, 2008 20:54 |  #10

Technically, you can't do anything. All he did was order them. My mother used to work with Kodak, developing pictures that were sent in. Well, when they inspected pictures, the only circumstances they were to report were when the people in the pictures were either:

1) Of murder that were not sent in by police
2) What appeared or was beastiology
3) Anyone who looked under the age of 16 naked, being touched in an inappropriate way

So even voyures were protected to a certian extent. She would get pictures of what appeared to be blindes in front of images of children playing in a sprinkler, or changing shirts in front of a window, that kind of stuff and couldn't do anything about it. Even those these kids looked under age.

Sad isn't it?


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cdifoto
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Mar 10, 2008 21:06 |  #11

lovebugg wrote in post #5089694 (external link)
Sad isn't it?

Nope.


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Mike ­ R
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Mar 10, 2008 21:09 |  #12

lovebugg wrote in post #5089694 (external link)
Technically, you can't do anything. All he did was order them. My mother used to work with Kodak, developing pictures that were sent in. Well, when they inspected pictures, the only circumstances they were to report were when the people in the pictures were either:

1) Of murder that were not sent in by police
2) What appeared or was beastiology
3) Anyone who looked under the age of 16 naked, being touched in an inappropriate way

So even voyures were protected to a certian extent. She would get pictures of what appeared to be blindes in front of images of children playing in a sprinkler, or changing shirts in front of a window, that kind of stuff and couldn't do anything about it. Even those these kids looked under age.

Sad isn't it?

Thanks for the help.


Mike R
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Village_Idiot
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Mar 11, 2008 08:28 |  #13

cdifoto wrote in post #5075865 (external link)
Gee I wonder. :lol:

On a serious note, there's an NCAA rule that prohibits selling images of athletes...

But cheerleading isn't a sport? :p


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cdifoto
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Mar 11, 2008 08:29 |  #14

Village_Idiot wrote in post #5092487 (external link)
But cheerleading isn't a sport? :p

That's true. :lol:


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Monito
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Mar 11, 2008 11:25 |  #15

"Shooting cheerleaders" is not the best use of language, what with all the school shootings. Try "photographing cheerleaders". 13 letters instead of 8, but you can do it. Or "imaging", hey that's 7 letters, you saved a whole letter typing! :)

You don't need a model release to sell pictures made in a public place or of people in a place where there is no expectation of privacy. Some places like malls and many sports arenas are not public, but you still don't need a release, as long as it is not for advertising or promotion, as others pointed out. However, because the places are private they can ask you to leave any time the management feels like it, but can't ask you to surrender or blank your pictures.

Don't report the customer. I honor your discretion in refusing the order and I think it may have been a good judgement call, but the customer has done nothing illegal in their dealings with you. Too much hysteria about pedophiles and paranoia about terrorists has lead to photographers being turned in just because they had a tripod or a long lens, without regard to what they were photographing. No need to over-amp the hysteria.


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Warning if you shoot cheerleaders
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