Strobe & Flash Comparison Testing: Part I (Output)

Hmmmm..... Can't you just tell me which ones are the best, in order?

Looks like the D-Lites were at or near the top, glancing over the charts.

Thanks for the comparisons.

Cougar548 wrote in post #5110118
Well now I don't really know what to do! I'm new to studio lights and I was set on getting a set of AB400 next week. From the looks of it, they AB's don't perform that well in the low end. But the thing is I don't really understand what it means when you say they are .7 off of variation. Does that mean that they are not bright enough, too bright? Should I still go with AB's? Should I move to Photogenic? Looks like a couple more long nights of research ahead of me....

It means that, if you are at 1/32nd power on the B800 and you fire it immediately after it recycles, the output will be .7 of stop less, requiring a change in your aperture of roughly 2/3rd of stop. Since it is being inconsistent, though, you don't have any way to know it will be off by that much.

Effectively, this means you should avoid using the 1/32nd power mode on the B800 if you don't want to worry about inconsistent exposures. At 1/16th power, the difference is significantly less and, if you don't shoot immediately after it recycles, the variance will be only .1 of stop which is negligible.

Michael

TMR Design wrote in post #5109798
I don't believe they are misleading at all Michael. Many people have chimed in on various other threads indicting that they are forced to use their strobes at those lower power levels. If you're working at 1/16 power and there is a 3/10 stop variation at any given time then that is a recipe for inconsistent exposures.

The 3/10th stop variation only occurred when you popped the flash immediately after recycle. Granted, some people may shoot that fast but I'd be willing to bet that most people do not fire their strobes consistently at that pace. I'm not sure I can ever remember firing my strobes that fast. (The photographers that typically tend to shoot rapid fire are fashion photographers.)

When not firing immediately after recycle, your own tests show that the variation is still only 1/10th of a stop at 1/16th power. The variation at 1/32nd of a power is significant but the D-Lites don't offer that setting so they don't help in those circumstances.

Are the D-Lites more consistent? Yes. Are they better? Probably. They also cost 20% more for a D-Lite4 than an Alienbees B800. (That's using the discounted price from B&H.) Plus, their accessories are significantly higher.

I'm not trying to knock the Elinchroms. My point is that Alienbees are the least expensive quality studio strobe out there (Calumet Genesis not withstanding as the results aren't in on them yet.) They have their flaws but they are very usable. Under extreme conditions (rapid firing at low power), they may not be suitable but let's keep this in perspective.

You're making it sound like Alienbees are unusable.

Michael

Cougar548 wrote in post #5110118
But the thing is I don't really understand what it means when you say they are .7 off of variation. Does that mean that they are not bright enough, too bright?

HI again Cougar548

Anton answered this above. 7/10 is the same as 2/3 stop. That's a lot and even though you can crank exposure in your RAW editor, I would never want to be using the RAW editor to correct for 2/3 stop. I'm ok when I correct by as much as 1/3 stop but more than that means I/you are just not good at nailing exposures, or in the case of an inconsistent strobe you might have one shot properly exposed and then another than is 2/3 stop underexposed, and the next is correct, etc.. Not a good scenario.

Sure, we can say "then don't use your strobes at levels lower than 1/8 but I still think that is a silly mentality when there are strobes that perform much better at those same levels. If it was unavailable or only available at very high cost then I'd go along with that attitude but there are strobes available that perform within a very tight tolerance for the same or less than Alien Bees.

Hi Robert,

That's what I thought! I just wanted to make sure I was not misunderstanding it.

After seeing your table I would definitely go with Elinchrom strobes, that is for sure!

btw. I am all undecided now. I was all set on the D-Lite2 kit but having read in another thread that their actual flash duration is very long and that they sync only up to 1/160s shutter speed reliably I am very hesitant. I want to use them with my children who are 4, 2, and 1-years-old respectively and they never stand still! I often get motion blur at 1/250s shutter speeds (without flash that is - with my 580EX II I have never seen motion blur so far as long as the camera is set to at least 2 stops underexposure without the flash) so I am dubious whether the D-Lite2 strobes will actually be good enough or whether I need the more expensive 400BX or even the 300RX (or 600RX perhaps). Also my daughter starts school in September so I am trying to think ahead for when I perhaps want to take the lights with me when the children are doing sports as the lighting at the local school is terrible (looks more like an old church than a sports building!).

What would your advice be on which light would be sufficient?

I mean just reading the on-paper specs the D-Lite2 should be fine with a t0.5 of 1/1200s duration but people seem to be suggesting this value is misleading and that in reality flash duration is much longer...

I am starting to think perhaps I should just buy more 580EX II flashes and Radiopoppers when they are released in the UK instead of strobes... Decisions, decisions...

Best regards,

Anton

Anton,

The reason I would recommend D-Lites to you is because you are overseas. The cost for Alienbees goes up considerably when they have to be shipped overseas.

Since I assume Elinchrom should be readily avaible in the UK, they should be a better deal.

Michael

magicmikey wrote in post #5110238
The 3/10th stop variation only occurred when you popped the flash immediately after recycle. Granted, some people may shoot that fast but I'd be willing to bet that most people do not fire their strobes consistently at that pace. I'm not sure I can ever remember firing my strobes that fast. (The photographers that typically tend to shoot rapid fire are fashion photographers.)

When not firing immediately after recycle, your own tests show that the variation is still only 1/10th of a stop at 1/16th power. The variation at 1/32nd of a power is significant but the D-Lites don't offer that setting so they don't help in those circumstances.

Are the D-Lites more consistent? Yes. Are they better? Probably. They also cost 20% more for a D-Lite4 than an Alienbees B800. (That's using the discounted price from B&H.) Plus, their accessories are significantly higher.

I'm not trying to knock the Elinchroms. My point is that Alienbees are the least expensive quality studio strobe out there (Calumet Genesis not withstanding as the results aren't in on them yet.) They have their flaws but they are very usable. Under extreme conditions (rapid firing at low power), they may not be suitable but let's keep this in perspective.

You're making it sound like Alienbees are unusable.

Michael

Michael,

It is you that is making them seem unusable. I have pointed out and clearly shown that the numbers for the Alien Bees are as good or better than some others at power levels above 1/16. I am also pointing out that at 1/16 or below they are unusable because of the inconsistency in power output.

Regarding frequency of pops. Michael, forget about taking pictures for a minute. Put yourself in a position where you're learning about metering and modeling the face for portraiture. Metering is important, if not crucial to do this accurately and to create the image you want rather than the one you end up with..... so imagine standing in front of your subject with your meter, firing the strobes and getting f/8 on the first pop , and then f/9 on the next. Which is it? What exposure do you go with? Do you pop it again? If so, what does that tell you? In my opinion it tells you nothing and your ability to meter a scene accurately just went out the window.

Ok, now go back to taking photographs. I'm not talking about firing a burst of shots or anything rapid fire, but if you have a model that is moving (perhaps to music) and you want to flow with her you can easily fire a shot every 2 seconds and that's enough to see the variation.

I suppose if you're shooting the dog and kids in the living room then it doesn't matter and that's ok. I Never stated that everyone with Bees should dump and replace them and I do not bad mouth them when making a recommendation. I don't see anything wrong with that considering that every other strobe on the list is much more consistent at minimum power, making it a usable x stop strobe instead of an x-2.

TMR Design wrote in post #5109798
I don't believe they are misleading at all Michael. Many people have chimed in on various other threads indicting that they are forced to use their strobes at those lower power levels. If you're working at 1/16 power and there is a 3/10 stop variation at any given time then that is a recipe for inconsistent exposures.

If you had a smaller standard deviation it might mean that 1 or 2 in 10 pops are off by 3/10 stop, or if you knew that the first pop was always going to be off then it wouldn't be so bad but if you are getting readings that vary by 3/10 stop and it jumps around on you it's a mess. .

I agree with Robert, that exposure consistency and frequency of variation can indeed be important. While the Metz 54MZ was more than sufficiently consistent when used at the top 5EV in output, dropping its power to 1/128 or 1/256 is something that I know better than to do...it would be better for me to use a ND filter on a lens before I consider dropping power that low (lower than anything else in the test, by the way, so nothing to apologize over)

Robert's test does also point out the fallacy that some buyers of AB lights have, "Buy plenty of power, because I can always crank it down...", yes down to where its consistency is very questionable! If anything, you should buy LESS power with AB, so that you are using at the upper half of its range, and not down at its minimum setting.

magicmikey wrote in post #5110238
Are the D-Lites more consistent? Yes. Are they better? Probably. They also cost 20% more for a D-Lite4 than an Alienbees B800. (That's using the discounted price from B&H.) Plus, their accessories are significantly higher.

Yes and the reality is that most people that buy B800's could easily do with the D-Lite 2 as I have seen and witnessed here as many members have gone that route and are much happier with the power. The D-Lite 2 is 200ws so it is in the middle of the B400 (160ws) and the B800 (320ws). The other thing to note is that there are only a few accessories that you must use the Elinchrom and beyond that you can use many other third party products.

If the ultimate goal is to buy what appears to be the most and is the cheapest, then ok, I guess the numbers lead you back to Alien Bees, but for the relatively small differential I don't think it makes sense.

No I'm really not. Do you own Elinchrom's? I've owned Alien Bees and Elinchrom's. I saw the difference. It's night and day when metering a scene. Any of the D-Lite owners will tell you that.

magicmikey wrote in post #5110238
The 3/10th stop variation only occurred when you popped the flash immediately after recycle. Granted, some people may shoot that fast but I'd be willing to bet that most people do not fire their strobes consistently at that pace. I'm not sure I can ever remember firing my strobes that fast. (The photographers that typically tend to shoot rapid fire are fashion photographers.)

Once every second (or two) is not rapid fire...thems slow film shooting rates!

Shooting portraiture I often find that I see a better expression after the portrait sitter knows the shutter has gone off, and I often shoot another exposure immediately after, when I see a better expression on their face because they are not expecting me to shoot again! And that does take 1 second recycle or better, and shooting before a flash has necessarily stabilized.

Robert,

I've never shot with an Elinchrom nor an Alienbees. I own White Lightnings and I own two WL X-1600 units that have the dual power settings. That way, I don't have to deal with reducing the power to 1/32nd.

I guess my frustration comes from the complaints that Alienbees don't match up to other lights, when those other lights are more expensive. Why should we expect them to be as high a quality as lights that cost more?

The key here is to understand what Alienbees represent. They are the least expensive studio strobes available (again, not including Calumet Genesis strobes which haven't been thoroughly tested yet) that will perform well in most circumstances.

The Elinchrom D-Lites have dropped in price and are still 20% higher. They were more than 28% higher before. I didn't spend the time researching the price on the other studio strobes you tested but I'm sure they are more expensive.

Why did I spend a little more and buy used White Lightnings? Because I understand the limitations of those inexpensive lights. I've tried to state it clearly in other threads: Alienbees are a great deal if you understand their limitations. That's it.

If you need better, then spend more and get better. If I was a full-time pro, I'm sure I would be likely to look at more expensive strobes than my White Lightnings.

Robert, nice job with this. I'm nominating you for "Measurebator of the Month" award, and Wilt for "Best Supporting Measurebator"!

To do something like this, and do it right, takes a lot of time and thought.

To the nay sayers and defenders of brand X, Y or Z, I highly recommend you do your own testing. As they say, "your mileage may vary".

I own two Alienbees B1600 units. I still think they're a great value and I don't regret the decision to buy them. But I did my own testing, and I know what they can do and what they can't.

If you become a famous photographer, you can afford the best equipment that money can buy. But the truth is that every photographer starts by using what he can afford, and developing his skills by learning to work within the limitations of his gear.

aia21 wrote in post #5110272
Hi Robert,

That's what I thought! I just wanted to make sure I was not misunderstanding it.

After seeing your table I would definitely go with Elinchrom strobes, that is for sure!

btw. I am all undecided now. I was all set on the D-Lite2 kit but having read in another thread that their actual flash duration is very long and that they sync only up to 1/160s shutter speed reliably I am very hesitant. I want to use them with my children who are 4, 2, and 1-years-old respectively and they never stand still! I often get motion blur at 1/250s shutter speeds (without flash that is - with my 580EX II I have never seen motion blur so far as long as the camera is set to at least 2 stops underexposure without the flash) so I am dubious whether the D-Lite2 strobes will actually be good enough or whether I need the more expensive 400BX or even the 300RX (or 600RX perhaps). Also my daughter starts school in September so I am trying to think ahead for when I perhaps want to take the lights with me when the children are doing sports as the lighting at the local school is terrible (looks more like an old church than a sports building!).

What would your advice be on which light would be sufficient?

I mean just reading the on-paper specs the D-Lite2 should be fine with a t0.5 of 1/1200s duration but people seem to be suggesting this value is misleading and that in reality flash duration is much longer...

I am starting to think perhaps I should just buy more 580EX II flashes and Radiopoppers when they are released in the UK instead of strobes... Decisions, decisions...

Best regards,

Anton

Hi Anton,

When it comes to questions about sync speeds and what flash duration is necessary for various types of action or shots with movement, I have to hand it off to Curtis and Wilt. Although we have seen conflcting reports of usable sync speeds on the D-Lites we do know that they don't have the short flash durations to accurately capture sports or action. I don't think the Elinchrom BX series is sufficient either. I believe you have to have the RX series and last time I checked on a 300RX they were going for around $750 a piece.

You would have to check this yourself but I believe the White Lightning 1600 is a popular outdoor and location strobe with fast flash duration. Of the strobes tested I don't know which of them would have fast enough flash duration other than the Dyna-Lite and Profoto.

Curtis N wrote in post #5110858
Robert, nice job with this. I'm nominating you for "Measurebator of the Month" award, and Wilt for "Best Supporting Measurebator"!

Thank you Curtis.. I'd like to thank the academy..lolololol

Mikey- You are posting some inaccurate information. First, Alien Bees are not the least expensive studio strobes in the testing. That honor goes to the more consistent Photogenic.

Stating that Alien Bees are a great deal if you understand their limitations is just like saying a Ford Pinto is a great car as long as you know its limitations and don't get rear ended so it blows up. An accurate statement but kind of silly.

There are six power settings on an Alien Bee and two of those (1/16 and 1/32) give bad results. I think not being able to use 33% of your power settings is a big deal.

Bad exposures matter to amateurs taking shots of their family- not just to full time professionals. I don't know about you but I prefer to get exposure correct. If I wanted random exposures I certainly wouldn't bother taking meter readings.

I'm glad Wilt brought up the issue of having too much power and how it forces people to use the lower 1/3 of the power scale. This is something Robert and I posted about quite a while back but is very worthwhile to mention again. It is my understanding that Bee owners have the ability to send their lights back and pay a small fee to change the power; I would think that this would be advantageous for a lot of AB800 owners who shoot in a small studio to downsize to AB400s to eliminate using one of the two lower power levels.

I have no doubt that they exist but so far with all the lights I owned and purchased for this test, and those that Wilt contributed,we could not find a single strobe at any price higher or lower than exhibits worse results in terms of consistency than the Alien Bees. IMO they are only useful if your shooting environment doesn't call for them to be used at 2 of the 6 power levels.

*The reason the Elinchrom D-Lites are currently more expensive than the Alien Bees is because they are imported and the US dollar has declined so much in the past year.