A moment of your time Vista haters...

I read a lot of wacky things about Vista from people that don't look deeper into the issues.

Examples? Buying OEM does not mean 5gb of trial software on your box. Both my past Dells came with just McAfee and I chucked it. Easy enough. Vista haters needs to drop this idea that Vista ships with nearly unlimited bloatware.

"It is a memory hog." Thank god. Why spend all that cash on RAM and never use it. It's by design. I won't even bother linking you here. Google is your friend.

"Mac runs better and is more secure." No, not more secure. That's been proven quite recently. Runs better? Well if you are locked into hardware of course it will run better. Trying to stuff vista on some crap machine with a bung of mishmashed hardware can be troublesome. Sure some have had issues with nice, expensive OEM boxes. So have Mac users. Star Trek computers screw up too you know?

Why my mini tirade? I've been following a story about Creative for some time now about their Vista drivers. They claim it's very difficult to write drivers etc. - well some guy fixed a bunch of your crippled software drivers and posted the fixes for the world to use and you lost it on him. Read more here (a couple layers deep)

http://yro.slashdot.or​g/yro/08/04/04/1554250​.shtml

Hardware specs for Vista have been kept pretty tight. I for one welcome our new hardware overlords. The time of crap Chinese peripherals with a mini disc supplied with cryptic drivers should come to an end.

Hardware manufacturers are pushing back against the "Appleization" of the Vista hardware requirements. Kludge boxen can run Ubuntu or Red Hat etc and you guys can tinker all night. The world wants a tighter spec for Windows and it's getting it. Transition for the manufacturers is WAY TOO SLOW. Vista has been around for some time and to not have a driver out for Vista means you want to reap more ROI from XP and not spend resources on new development to support the same old crap you've been repackaging for years to us.

Forcing people to buy new hardware and blaming Vista is not good business. People are smarter now. Write the damn driver.

Vendors, manufacturers, Creative just had their bell rung. It's time for you to step up and get your Vista drivers out the door and get off your profit maximizing butt. There will be no profits if no one is buying your crap.

XP is being discontinued. Vista is moving forward and the public who have misconceptions about Vista need to have a upgrade path that is stable and cost effective for ALL.

Adobe is dedicated to moving to 64 bit and rock solid code. Many others are too. Software publishers are either on board or they've missed the boat. The Vista "haters" are entitled to a smooth transition and it's time Microsoft fixed the perception by putting pressure on the industry to get with the program. Microsoft of course is always working on fixing bugs and service paking the crap out of their stuff. They also need to move faster.

My Vista experience has been excellent and I hope that the industry can help others have the same. The public also needs to separate fact from fiction. The world run son Windows (Sorry Apple guys, it's just fact) and it's time for everyone to man up and get on with it.

My main problem with vista is this:

None - I do mean NONE of my peripherals will work on that OS. It's usually due to the fact (as you stated it) that the manufacturers of said products are lax on putting out new drivers to accommodate Vista. I don't see a reason for me to upgrade to a new OS when it means I have to buy new hardware to work with the new OS, especially when I'm perfectly happy with my hardware.

Two - it's a huge memory hog. I want as much memory as I can possibly get to run my Photoshop and Lightroom applications, in addition to plug-ins and the like. XP does a fine job right now, why fix what ain't broke?

I'd consider using Vista if the hardware folks would get off their damn butts and write some driver software for my existing peripherals.

by the way, don't knock Apple too much. I use them at school, and they're awesome. They run everything I ask of them effortlessly, and it's quite easy to use.

I use Vista and the only problem I have is that when I buy a new peripheral, the box says Vista compatible but then inside it has a link to download the proper driver. DON'T say its compatible if it isn't that way out of the box. Canon, LinkSys (Cisco) are just a couple of them.

HP would rather have you buy a new printer instead of making drivers for their old printers. So my parents are still on XP.

V8Rumble wrote in post #5262502
HP would rather have you buy a new printer instead of making drivers for their old printers. So my parents are still on XP.

Which is why when I buy a new printer I will look elsewhere.

Zansho wrote in post #5262342
Two - it's a huge memory hog.

Don't knock Apple

You sir are exactly who I targeted in this thread. Read up on Vista memory management. See image.

Your being forced to buy new peripherals. Apple? Hardware? Drivers? You see how silly that is right?

HTTP response: 404 | MIME changed to 'text/html' | Byte size: ZERO

Zansho wrote in post #5262342
My main problem with vista is this:

Trust me I'm in your corner. I want people to see what is reality here. I went through it when OS X came out and I bolted to Windows.

I just don't want people to just roll over and take it or bash Vista for no reason. Consumers need to be aware of when they are in control and when they are not.

Jason - whilst Vista is good in many areas, the UI redesigns are dreadful in Vista, network file transfer speeds were shocking (improvements are generally found with SP1 I admit). Want to install SP1? You *must* have 12gb free hard drive space. WTF? For an update? That is beyond a joke. UAC? Either extremely annoying, which is why most people turn it off, or live with it and get bugged a lot. UNIX does it better imho.

Microsoft's failure to provide WinFS after all these years (they were talking about it pre Windows 95 days), and true 3D effects via the window manager etc (Aero is an extrememly watered down version of what they promised originally).

Microsoft's problem is that it's a huge, bloated monopolist. It invents very little itself, it simply relies on others to make nice new technology and then buys that company and integrates it. That is NOT innovation.

Microsoft's treatment of open source products is dreadful (OOXML debacle anyone?). I prefer not to support a convicted monopolist, even if the US DOJ doesn't have the balls to actually punish Microsoft properly.

That said, I did buy an OEM copy of Vista Ultimate 64 bit edition, which I'm yet to install as the new PC doesn't have all its parts yet (for me to build).

Most of the problems with Vista are due to 3rd party hardware manufacturers writing dreadful drivers, or no drivers at all. 3rd party software vendors aren't much better imho, but that's why closed source software development does NOT work well imho. Security by obfuscation does not work. Security by many eyes does. Microsoft's track record in security of their products is not good (try Secunia's website). Microsoft's track record in patching said securities is EVEN worse. This is not good for the end user.

Microsoft's abuse of the OEM market (read: anticompetitive monopolisation) is not healthy for the community.

Sorry to include some moral issues to the technical issues, but Microsoft is such a huge beast these days that it warrants inclusion imho.

Dave

They are at fault for much. No doubt. But the rhetoric around Vista is getting comical.

I do see how silly it is. Sort of like a damned if you do, damned if you don't.

One, we're often upgrading our camera equipment, and buying new lenses, lights, bodies, software, printers - you get the idea. I would like for my computer to have some kind of longevity, especially with stuff I've purchased fairly recently and now find out I can't use it because the manufacturer of the peripheral is too "lazy" and can't be bothered to make a driver compatible with Vista?

I ALMOST made a complete switch to apple, then I realized - oh snap, I'd have to buy new almost everything, which kind of defeats the purpose. New hardware, new software, new ... bleh. So I simply stayed with XP Pro, and it works with everything I have just fine.

Don't get me wrong though, Jason. I'd switch to Vista if these problems were addressed. I just don't want to have to deal with the headache of having to repurchase all the items I've worked hard to get, and upgrade for no reason other than driver incompatibility. Buying new stuff because it gets outdated and doesn't work anymore is one thing, but getting new stuff because it doesn't work with my OS is completely another.

cosworth wrote in post #5262649
They are at fault for much. No doubt. But the rhetoric around Vista is getting comical.

Oh, I agree completely. Vista is not as bad as many are making out. For most people, with decent hardware, with decent drivers, it works well (ignoring the ethics of Microsoft here of course). Microsofts changes to the UI were uncalled for imho, and has made simple things confusing. Most of us tech support guys HATE vista for changing so much unnecessarily from earlier versions of Windows. I'm really a Linux guy, and my favourite desktop environment KDE cops so much bagging for its UI, which is a lot better than Vista's imho.

Dave

dpastern wrote in post #5262639
...true 3D effects via the window manager etc

I have heard one person actually mention this topic in a serious tone. You.
Sorry, but eye candy is not a product feature.

dpastern wrote in post #5262639
Microsoft's problem is that it's a huge, bloated monopolist. It invents very little itself, it simply relies on others to make nice new technology and then buys that company and integrates it. That is NOT innovation.

You realize that you just described Apple, right? name one quality piece of software that Apple wrote not purchased . Try it.

Shake? Nope. They killed an industry leader stone cold dead.

Logic? Nope.

Final Cut? Nope.

Motion? Kinda. It was already in development when they purchased Nothing Real. Apple just finished it.

OSX? nope. As you already pointed out, they just put an interface on BSD.

Quicktime? It's become such a crap shoot for professional since v6 that those who rely on it don't dare upgrade until the rest of the world beta tests it for them.

iWork? Debatable. It was a Claris product that Apple took over. I don't think anyone actually uses it much, thanks to its <cough> not so-format-friendly nature.

I'm at a loss to name any real apps that apple has done themselves anymore. Oh wait! I got it! Garageband! Even though it was just a refabbed, thinned out version of Logic made by... the designer of Logic.

dpastern wrote in post #5262639
<deletia>

Microsoft's abuse of the OEM market (read: anticompetitive monopolisation) is not healthy for the community.

Sorry to include some moral issues to the technical issues, but Microsoft is such a huge beast these days that it warrants inclusion imho.

Dave

So.. A closed system is not healthy you say? A juggernaut controlling software, platforms and all that jazz isn't good for the customer blah blah blah?

You are describing Apples' business model to a T. Hell they wont allow you to distribute free applications for their phone.

MS isn't the same company that it used to be. most of the changes are on the OEM relationship end. There are significant changes as to how they deal with customers and vendors. After the last lawsuit was settled MS significantly changed their ways.

Of course you might think that all of this is coming from a MS fanboy, and that it should just be disregarded. I'm not a fan of MS, but I gain particular disdain for Apple ever since becoming an Apple partner and Reseller.

Don't get me wrong, whilst I like OS X, I dislike Apple as a company, and yes, it is worse than Microsoft in many areas. If I had it my way, both Microsoft and Apple would be heavily penalised, but sadly, they are American companies and the US government will NEVER penalise them. This is the same government that gives the RIAA and MPAA a free road to do whatever they like. When governments allow companies like Microsoft and Apple to do what they do, one has to wonder. People vote governments in, not businesses. Businesses should have NOTHING to do with governments, which is what I think Lincoln originally envisioned.

I'm really an open source guy at heart - the development works, and works well. Sadly, the established proprietary, greedy, monopolistic, anti competitive companies will do their best to kill any competition that doesn't come to them.

Oh, and I suspect that if Apple introduces the iPhone to Australia it will be investigated by our ACCC and found wanting - vendor lock in is not appreciated in Australia. I wonder how the US can have such supposedly strong anti competitition laws, but allow vendor lock in like Apple is doing?

Anyways, we have drifted off topic - Microsoft Vista has done many things well, some things average, and some things just plain bad. My fear is that I've just invested money in Vista, and Microsoft will probably stifle development in favour of Windows 7, which will probably fix many of the Vista issues. I will be even less impressed with Microsoft if they try this topic.

The software industry, as a whole, needs a complete clean up. It is the only consumer based product that can pretty much ignore consumer laws to its hearts content. Make developers responsible for a quality product, if they can't do so, then they shouldn't be developing software.

Dave

Kinda funny that Microsoft just extended the support of WinXP through June 30th 2010.

Tsmith wrote in post #5263232
Kinda funny that Microsoft just extended the support of WinXP through June 30th 2010.

I am looking for a laptop and one of the things I WANT is windows XP Pro. It took this many years to get XP stable (sort of) and Vista will have to go to the same path. Windows is just a MSDOS program that streched WAY past its bed time.

Many of the underlying issues is the useless BIOS, but there is no way they can get rid of that without re-writting everything. UNIX on the other hand was designed to be a multitasking OS from the get go and runs on tru 64/128 bit CPU/architecture. Except on the x86 platform. None of the x86 chips are trully 64bits...they emulate it.

Anyhow msdos is like a point and shot, windows like cropped dSLR, MacOS FF dSLR and UNIX like hasselblads...