What would you do ? ( wedding/business related )

I know this may not be exactly wedding and other family events, but I thought I'd post it here because it's where the wedding pro's hang out Long post though! Beware
Anyway, as I mentioned in another thread, I have been mailing local photographers for a good while, asking for a chance to assist them on shoots, go to anything as a second shooter, drag around gear bags, whatever, I just wanted to be on the field.
Eventually, I contacted a guy with a shop, he did mostly weddings, an area I had never imagined doing, but that's where he needed some help, so that's what I agreed to do. Also, he and the people who work there with him have invited me over, just to hang out and watch them doing stuff on photoshop, like wedding albums, etc, so I asked " anything for me to do ? " they said, sure, go ahead, and I started processing wedding pictures ( raw's ) and after that they told me I could design a wedding album. Ok, now I've gone with him to 2 weddings, an after wedding session, and spent at least 15 hours working on wedding pictures/album for a couple in his studio. I guess I could divide my question in two parts, one part is the in-office work, and the other is the field work.

Office work: I enjoy working with photoshop, processing and retouching photos, but I'm not exactly learning anything there ( altough I'm sure he thinks I am, even though I've helped other employees with pp a few times ) and sometimes it can get boring, because the pictures are not for me to use, so I really need to process them all, even the ones I'd just skip or delete, that's they're workflow, and there are hundreds, if not over 1000 photos for a certain couple, because sometimes there's something like an engagement session, wedding day with usually 2 photographers, and a shoot after the wedding day. I'm 19, and I'm studying in the morning and doing this many after-noons now, if that's important.

Field work ( weddings ): I've gone to 2 so far, had fun and really enjoyed it, I went as a second photographer on the first and as a third on the second. I don't know how it's done in the U.S.A, but he does it like this:
around 8 a.m, groom's house, pictures of the clothes, small details, etc, groom getting dressed, parents helping groom, a few "formals" of the groom with close family that's on the house. Then, bride's house, same thing, including group pictures of however many people are there at the moment. Photos of bride getting in the car, empty church shots, ceremony shots, couple coming out. Reception: every guest takes a picture with the couple, just line them up and shoot, the second wedding had almost 200 people, so this alone took well over 30 minutes with 2 photographers. Then he takes the couple around the garden or something while the other ones get shots of the room, to get some shots of the bride and groom doing the same stuff they did in the session before they married, you know " you kiss him, you kiss her, you run, he runs " . Then, he rushes to the lab and prints proofs of all the pictures he's taken so far, except the ones that the guests aren't interested in, like small details, church shots, etc, which he makes everyone shoot in raw because he tells the lab to print the jpgs from the cards. Meanwhile the guests have lunch, second photographer and camera man stay there, have lunch, capture anything of interest. He comes back hours later with hundreds of proofs, sets them up, and the guests gather around and buy the ones they like, and they buy quite a bit. After this, we get some shots of the guests dancing, the cake, and it's over.
What I don't like here, he is very stubborn, everything has to be this way, I've suggested small changes like, printing proofs on the spot a bit later so people could see or buy shots of them dancing and stuff like that, nothing. I also dislike that the shots he wants and gets are very repetitive, as he uses the same techs and shoots the same things over and over again. I also dislike the fact that he is very proof selling oriented, he wants shots that will sell then and there, and that ticks me off, even though I get it's business, I think there's too much focus on it, and I think that if I get good ceremony or candid shots but no decent " standard " group shots that sell, he would be annoyed. Just an example, while he was shooting the group shots, I was trying to get candids. I got a cool ( imo ) shot of the bride's sister laughing, great pose, spontaneous, she had no idea I had shot her, but in trying to get it in time, I chopped off a bit of her hands. Later, I got a very boring shot with two women looking somewhere, blank expressions. When he reviewed the pictures he said the second one was better, he said it was a picture that would sell because it's a tight shot of the two ladies, and that the other one has too much empty space behind her and her hands are cut, he said no one would buy the former. I strongly disagree, and even if she didn't buy it because of the hands issue, which I doubt, it is a much stronger image for an album or something, there was clear emotion, pleasing subject, rule of thirds. Well, you get the idea. What I also very much dislike is that he makes all photographers use his cards and give them to him at the end of the day, so I can't keep my pictures, not even for personal uses, portfolio, nothing, he says the couple doesn't allow it, but I'm sure they wouldn't mind that much if I kept the shots I took. This is the bad, having him want repetitive yet surely good selling photos over interesting or less common photos that may not sell as well on the spot. The good, it's fun, obviously, but I'm not exactly learning too much from him as I'm learning from experience that I wouldn't get otherwise. Also, they have been very nice to me, making an effort to teach me and make feel welcome around there, unlike 80% of other photographers that don't even reply to e-mails. They're final work is nice, quality prints of course, and they get lots of clients, I just think it can get kind of repetitive. By the way, I got paid 20€ on the second wedding because he said he'd use some of the photos ( not sure if they were proofs or album, I guess they were proofs ), all the while using my own equipment and getting 0 photos to show for it.

They have a massive delay in album deliveries, months and months, actually. I was thinking of finishing the album, and asking them if they want help in a more professional way, as in a part time job. Like I said, I like doing that, but I'm not doing work that they'd be doing if I wasn't there, for free, and learning nothing, that's just free employees for him. On the other hand, that may not go well with him, and just cut me off the whole thing. The weddings, I like doing them, but I don't like the rules he imposes nor not getting pictures, so what would you do ? Keep going, trying to do what he wants while learning from experience, having fun, getting paid ( very litlle ) and most likely not getting shots for yourself or just stop going to both weddings and office and try to get a photographer that has a different style ? Sorry for the long read guys, I kinda had to vent, lol

I also work as a second shooter, and my gut feeling on it, is that you really have to take the experience for what it's worth. As you said, 80% of the other togs you approached didn't even acknowledge your emails, so hang in there, soak it all up, do as you're asked, and just make a mental note of what you'll do differently when it comes time to go out on your own. I'd say, keep your mind open along the way. It sounds like this chap has a few weddings under his belt and has developed a feel for what sells. And that's the bottom line - the shots WE like, are not always the ones that are popular with the customer. You'll learn heaps where you are. The 'eyes open, mouth shut' approach will probably stand you in good stead for a bit. Good luck!

Davidoff wrote in post #5287809
I know this may not be exactly wedding and other family events, but I thought I'd post it here because it's where the wedding pro's hang out Long post though! Beware
Anyway, as I mentioned in another thread, I have been mailing local photographers for a good while, asking for a chance to assist them on shoots, go to anything as a second shooter, drag around gear bags, whatever, I just wanted to be on the field.
Eventually, I contacted a guy with a shop, he did mostly weddings, an area I had never imagined doing, but that's where he needed some help, so that's what I agreed to do. Also, he and the people who work there with him have invited me over, just to hang out and watch them doing stuff on photoshop, like wedding albums, etc, so I asked " anything for me to do ? " they said, sure, go ahead, and I started processing wedding pictures ( raw's ) and after that they told me I could design a wedding album. Ok, now I've gone with him to 2 weddings, an after wedding session, and spent at least 15 hours working on wedding pictures/album for a couple in his studio. I guess I could divide my question in two parts, one part is the in-office work, and the other is the field work.

Office work: I enjoy working with photoshop, processing and retouching photos, but I'm not exactly learning anything there ( altough I'm sure he thinks I am, even though I've helped other employees with pp a few times ) and sometimes it can get boring, because the pictures are not for me to use, so I really need to process them all, even the ones I'd just skip or delete, that's they're workflow, and there are hundreds, if not over 1000 photos for a certain couple, because sometimes there's something like an engagement session, wedding day with usually 2 photographers, and a shoot after the wedding day. I'm 19, and I'm studying in the morning and doing this many after-noons now, if that's important.

Field work ( weddings ): I've gone to 2 so far, had fun and really enjoyed it, I went as a second photographer on the first and as a third on the second. I don't know how it's done in the U.S.A, but he does it like this:
around 8 a.m, groom's house, pictures of the clothes, small details, etc, groom getting dressed, parents helping groom, a few "formals" of the groom with close family that's on the house. Then, bride's house, same thing, including group pictures of however many people are there at the moment. Photos of bride getting in the car, empty church shots, ceremony shots, couple coming out. Reception: every guest takes a picture with the couple, just line them up and shoot, the second wedding had almost 200 people, so this alone took well over 30 minutes with 2 photographers. Then he takes the couple around the garden or something while the other ones get shots of the room, to get some shots of the bride and groom doing the same stuff they did in the session before they married, you know " you kiss him, you kiss her, you run, he runs " . Then, he rushes to the lab and prints proofs of all the pictures he's taken so far, except the ones that the guests aren't interested in, like small details, church shots, etc, which he makes everyone shoot in raw because he tells the lab to print the jpgs from the cards. Meanwhile the guests have lunch, second photographer and camera man stay there, have lunch, capture anything of interest. He comes back hours later with hundreds of proofs, sets them up, and the guests gather around and buy the ones they like, and they buy quite a bit. After this, we get some shots of the guests dancing, the cake, and it's over.
What I don't like here, he is very stubborn, everything has to be this way, I've suggested small changes like, printing proofs on the spot a bit later so people could see or buy shots of them dancing and stuff like that, nothing. I also dislike that the shots he wants and gets are very repetitive, as he uses the same techs and shoots the same things over and over again. I also dislike the fact that he is very proof selling oriented, he wants shots that will sell then and there, and that ticks me off, even though I get it's business, I think there's too much focus on it, and I think that if I get good ceremony or candid shots but no decent " standard " group shots that sell, he would be annoyed. Just an example, while he was shooting the group shots, I was trying to get candids. I got a cool ( imo ) shot of the bride's sister laughing, great pose, spontaneous, she had no idea I had shot her, but in trying to get it in time, I chopped off a bit of her hands. Later, I got a very boring shot with two women looking somewhere, blank expressions. When he reviewed the pictures he said the second one was better, he said it was a picture that would sell because it's a tight shot of the two ladies, and that the other one has too much empty space behind her and her hands are cut, he said no one would buy the former. I strongly disagree, and even if she didn't buy it because of the hands issue, which I doubt, it is a much stronger image for an album or something, there was clear emotion, pleasing subject, rule of thirds. Well, you get the idea. What I also very much dislike is that he makes all photographers use his cards and give them to him at the end of the day, so I can't keep my pictures, not even for personal uses, portfolio, nothing, he says the couple doesn't allow it, but I'm sure they wouldn't mind that much if I kept the shots I took. This is the bad, having him want repetitive yet surely good selling photos over interesting or less common photos that may not sell as well on the spot. The good, it's fun, obviously, but I'm not exactly learning too much from him as I'm learning from experience that I wouldn't get otherwise. Also, they have been very nice to me, making an effort to teach me and make feel welcome around there, unlike 80% of other photographers that don't even reply to e-mails. They're final work is nice, quality prints of course, and they get lots of clients, I just think it can get kind of repetitive. By the way, I got paid 20€ on the second wedding because he said he'd use some of the photos ( not sure if they were proofs or album, I guess they were proofs ), all the while using my own equipment and getting 0 photos to show for it.

They have a massive delay in album deliveries, months and months, actually. I was thinking of finishing the album, and asking them if they want help in a more professional way, as in a part time job. Like I said, I like doing that, but I'm not doing work that they'd be doing if I wasn't there, for free, and learning nothing, that's just free employees for him. On the other hand, that may not go well with him, and just cut me off the whole thing. The weddings, I like doing them, but I don't like the rules he imposes nor not getting pictures, so what would you do ? Keep going, trying to do what he wants while learning from experience, having fun, getting paid ( very litlle ) and most likely not getting shots for yourself or just stop going to both weddings and office and try to get a photographer that has a different style ? Sorry for the long read guys, I kinda had to vent, lol

Honestly?...Bottom line is it's not for you to decide. All the things this photographer does, have worked for him up to this point so why would you think it's your place to change anything? Now, as dislikeable as his process and practices are to you, he's happy. What I would suggest to you is get a wedding of your own and take all the things you've learned then change what you don't like because, to be very honest, it is then your business and not his. As long as you work for someone or are under their tutilage you do as your asked. You have to remember this person has taken you under his wing at your request. Learn all you can then get going on your own. If you're ready now then get going now. Don't get frustrated with things you cannot change, rather, change the things you have control over. This may seem like I'm attacking you or it may not but I mean everything as constructive criticism. I really hope this helps and think it's great that you've had the opportunity to see how a studio is run. Not many people have that chance.

Thanks for your advice. Lightchaser, when I meant is that better shots are beter shots even if they don't sell to the guests, as they can be used on the album, what I was saying is that he preferred that I didn't take that shot because he thought it would not sell, he didn't even print it. You have no idea how boring the picture of the women that he liked was, I wouldn't buy it if I were them. Kamra, I know it's not my business, but he does things because he's just to stubborn or cheap or I don't know. Get this, at around 3 p.m he goes out to the lab, drives for miles, pays for gas, pays for proofs in the lab. Then he comes back in about 2 or 3 hours ( so you see how far the lab is ) and hangs them on the wall. On both weddings I went to, I had people asking where they could get the shots that were taken after 3 p.m, and I had to say there was no way that they could buy the shots now. I asked him, why not set a laptop with a printer there and print small proofs throughout the after-noon. He reacter as if I was a bit mad and had suggested he shot with a toy camera. This suggestion alone would pay for itself in weeks. Also, I don't plan on doing weddings on my own, at least for now, but I still want the shots for a portfolio or personal record.

wow. thanks for the update! what an experience so far.
i haven't even gotten anyone to respond to me.
well, there was one, but she didn't end up calling back.

i would try emailing people again, but i guess if he's the only one, then you have to live with it. it sucks that he won't let you even have a few shots for a portfolio, that seems kinda silly IMO. But as for the business, like everyone has said, its his business and he may like boring shots, but its either that or nothing. Photographers probably wouldn't book him, but there's a lot of people who would because they don't know any better i guess. I'd try it by myself for once, if you know a couple getting married, or maybe a small wedding. I'm sure he's taught you more than you think (not the pp thing though). and if not, it's not a job, so you can just say bye bye whenever you want. Good luck in whatever you do, but i'd stay for as long as i could tolerate it.

Not sure if this will help you, but who owns the copyright on those photos that you shot? were you an employee? or were you just taken along for the experience? Here if I am not an employee the shots are mine! unless I sign them over to someone else. so... I would look into that if I were you.

I would also say that sticking it out and learning what he finds sells, meanwhile learning from his customers what they would really like. is a super good Idea! I too would advise you to stay as long as you can, try to get paid a little for it though

shots that sell and shots that make people hire you are 2 completely different kinds/styles/poses/fee​l/look to them. That's what I have learn so far. Majority of the older photographers can't make the transition to the digital age and majority of the younger photographers think they own the digital age, so you got to find the fine line in between.

like you said, you are a 2nd, and you have voiced your suggestions to him, you have done more than your part, and Kamra has said it and it's correct and important, his bottom line is not up to you to decide. However, take into experience what is going around and when you strike on your own, you know what to do to make it work.

While I understand that you like photography, want to gain experience, blah blah blah, I strongly suggest that you sit down and talk to the photographer about your work and images. Since you have done a couple of albums for free for him and also have showed him that the images that you shoot can sell, it's time to stop doing "free" work. While the experience is invaluable, free work is not,(well to him it is, but not you) with schoolwork to juggle as well, doing free PP and album designs... check to see what the going market rate is for those charges, plus you are helping his full time employees with PP... I see a huge problem with this...

You might have to walk away from him if you can't get to an agreement of terms. ie, keep some images for portfolio, get a fixed pay and other stuff that's listed in this section about 2nd shooters.

If the minds can't meet on the terms, you have the final option, go in, do a couple more, but just shoot, learn as much as you can, and like what they say, if it's not work for hire, you have the copyrights. just make sure you don't sign anything that will give away your images.

from what I've read and the info collected, I managed to get these benefits from the 2 local wedding photogs that I 2nd for, I get paid an amount for each event, I get a cut if the images sell, I keep all copyrights, get to use them in my own portfolio, however, the photog have all the usage rights. I don't have to do PP, but if I want to, I can. The better thing is, all these are verbal agreements, no black and white documented.

I couldn't help a quick reply. Late last year I was shooting a family party as a favor (not to big a favor as we pulled up to their backyard in our boat) but nevertheless. There was a fellow there about 19 who turned up his nose at my 30d. He was righteous in his certaint that any photographer worth a darn only ever shoots film. He wants to pursue a photography career and will NEVER consider wasting his time with digital. So as a 55 year old facing a 19 year old there is always an exception!

Thanks for the replies everyone. Kayla, I'd suggest you keep trying and phone them, not the other way around. PiRho, I don't really know who has the copyright and if I were an employee, but I guess I was just along for the ride. The only thing he said about that issue is that the couple only said it was ok for him to use the photos, he gives me cards to shoot in, and in the end of the day he takes them back, I really must talk to him about that. Obviously the couple didn't say " carefull with who gets those pictures, only you can ever store them !!! ". Ok, I think I'll do what was suggested, hang on for a bit while I can, learning at least some of the business part and how everything works, and getting paid as long as I get shots that he can sell or use. Aaagogo, exactly. Still, I think everyone here is getting the idea that I think I'm better than him or something, and it's nothing like that, I just suggested a few things that I felt would be good improvements, he ignored them, too bad, but I don't care, it's not my business. I have to look for that section about 2nd shooters. So far, I haven't done full albums yet, I have a few hours of work, but it was just processing an entire wedding and designing maybe half of the album, I don't plan on doing it anymore after I finish this one unless something is arranged. I hope by then he realizes I'd be a worthy investment, just so you get a sense of what I'm talking about, the album I'm making now was shot last year in May, so they are really behind and could use the help on the office part. By the way, now that we've mentioned gear, everyone sees people agonizing on the forums and asking if 2.8 zooms are fast enough, or should they get primes or something. This guy shot entire weddings for years with nothing but a 17-85 IS and a flash... what do you guys make of that ?

i dont think you think you're better than him.
i know you are.

motivational? lol

2nd that notion, and the reason is because you know to come here to talk and get advice and steal ideas and share.

just remember, even when you are successful, don't forget all these and remember that you had once started out as a noob

pregnantcowlady wrote in post #5294287
i dont think you think you're better than him.
i know you are.

motivational? lol

Motivational, sure thanks.
But I'm not sure what you mean, are you saying I'm better than him because I post and discuss and try to learn here when he just goes and does the usual ?

yeah, basically.
learning new things is part of art.
i dont think he considers his job art per say.
make sense?

fredlef wrote in post #5293814
I couldn't help a quick reply. Late last year I was shooting a family party as a favor (not to big a favor as we pulled up to their backyard in our boat) but nevertheless. There was a fellow there about 19 who turned up his nose at my 30d. He was righteous in his certaint that any photographer worth a darn only ever shoots film. He wants to pursue a photography career and will NEVER consider wasting his time with digital. So as a 55 year old facing a 19 year old there is always an exception!

lol, not to hijack the thread, but wow. Someone should tell him his close minded approach is going to get him in hot water if he ever decides to make a living doing photography. Some clients WANT you to shoot digital, doesn't matter if it's wedding, commercial, or advertising. What are you gonna do when you can't produce what the client wants? There are still other clients who prefer you to shoot with a view camera.

I'm not saying film is long and dead. I still shoot with my EOS 1 using b/w film. However, digital is becoming the mainstream choice and it's easy to see why. Ease of use, instant feedback on shots, quick turnaround time (depends on workflow), and prints that either rival or beat film quality.

Film isn't dead. But one of these days, it's going to be phased out completely in favor of digital technology, at the rate we're going.

The way I see it you have several choices. Is he paying you? If so, then if you want to stay there you do it his way. If not, you can walk away any time you want. If you feel his methods are hampering your learning experience, then it's time to move on. It's his business and he can run it any way he wants. If he fails, it's not your problem...