What would you do ? ( wedding/business related )

Absolutely, thanks Kayla
JWright, regarding the weddings, he paid me on the second one, but you know, 25€ is around 15$, which isn't much for a working day from 7:30a.m to 1 a.m. His methods are questionable, but still, I'm learning much more being on the field than at home on the computer, so I guess I'll stay, and there's the very real chance that he'll pay me a bit better next time around.

So you have help shoot two weddings and about 10 hours of photoshop, and now you know what he is doing wrong?

Interesting, very interesting.

Actually, it's pretty easy to see what someone is doing wrong when you're sorting trough every single photo and doing the album. Now I've been to at least 8 weddings and 3 albums and my opinion is exactly the same.

Are you still shooting with a minolta? I have had 4 and everyone eventually died. Still loved that digital camera.

I went to calumet in Chicago a month ago and was floored at the price of film. Just shooting a wedding like I did when I was using film, would now cost me about $ 800 in just film!

Davidoff wrote in post #5897364
Actually, it's pretty easy to see what someone is doing wrong when you're sorting trough every single photo and doing the album. Now I've been to at least 8 weddings and 3 albums and my opinion is exactly the same.

If someone was working for me and had that opinion all I could do is point towards the door and let them walk though it.

Minolta ? I had a p&s thas was a minolta, but the battery stopped working a few years ago.

I don't think he knows, but I also don't think he'd care.

edit: also, that remark sounds like I insulted him or something. I'm just saying that mistakes are made, and I notice them.

1. It is his business. He makes the rules, he earns the money. He obviously did well enough to still be around and have people working for him. While you may have great ideas to help him improve, he may have a different direction that he wants to go in(the same one that has worked for X years).
2. I'm fine with proving that I'm capable behind a camera for a day for free if that is what it takes to get a job, but constantly? No. Ask yourself what you are getting from this? Experience? A little. Money? No. Anything that will help you get a job in the future? Maybe a reference, but doesn't sound like it.
3. I'm thinking around $10/hr minimum for a second shooter, but figure out how little money it will take to buy your time and see if you current job makes the cut.

Just so you know, I'm a second shooter at weddings. I work with the owner of the company to help improve and expand his business, we go places and practice together, share ideas on shots during the day. I'm allowed to keep all of my shots for portfolio use, and I get paid more for shooting one wedding than I get graphic designing all week.


Maybe you should stop by some studios or call them up to try to find a better job. Maybe look a city or two over even. If they pay well and you like working for them, then the drive will be worth it. Good luck.

Davidoff wrote in post #5294171
This guy shot entire weddings for years with nothing but a 17-85 IS and a flash... what do you guys make of that ?

This is a great example! Clients don't know or care about L lenses. it is the end product that they care about!

Hello Adam, great input. I know the clients don't care about L's, but what if the end product is fuzzy and grainy because the lens isn't quick enough ? What if it has far too much dof ? Details like these matter for a lot of clients, imo. Sure, they don't know it has more or less dof, but they know what appeals to them. Isn't bounced flash or a shallower dof appealing in a final product as well ? Also, look at who would do an entire wedding with that lens around here ?
1. I did pitch ideas once or twice, but the reaction was either rude or completely uninterested, so I don't really care anymore.
2. I did that for like 5 weddings or so, but the last 3 were paid. Not 10$ an hour, maybe half that. He paid by the day, not hour. The way I see it, I'm getting a bit of experience, some people skills, and some money.
3. No, it's low, but it's better than nothing.

The problem is, I already did that, I visited, called or e-mailed at least 10-15 photographers in my city before finding this one. It's not like I have other options for working with pros. Where I am I don't work "with him", I work for him, I don't help expand his business, we don't practice anything ( he doesn't practice anything, that I know of ), there's no point in sharing ideas, he always knows best, or at least acts like it, and I can't keep ANY shots for a portfolio.

I will try more photographers soon though.

I think someone else said this, but its worth repeating.

Shots that are artistic and shots that sell are usually very different, vastly different. He is a wedding photographer, and you're comparing him to an artist. They use the same tools but are not the same thing, although you can be both. From my experience, the primary photographer goes after the artistic shots, and has the seconds/thirds go after the basic shots that sell so he can cover his expenses and make money. The artist ones may or may not sell.

90% of the people buy the normal P&S type/snapshot because they want to remember the event. 10% of the people will buy an artistic photograph because it makes them remember the feeling, or it tells a story.

IMHO, keep your head down, mouth shut, and learn as much as you can. You don't have to do it that way when you have your own place, and the experience will teach you what work and doesn't work FOR YOU.

Aram, his business doesn't really work like that. He shoots what's going on troughout the day to put in the album. So, it doesn't really matter if they're artistic or not, it's what the bride is getting in the end. What he sells are the photos that are taken of the guests with the bride and groom, usually here everyone gets their shot taken with the b&g and then buys it later, just normal snaps. That's what he's worried about selling.
I'm not comparing him to an artist, I'm just saying that there are purely technical mistakes and often other mistakes, that shouldn't happen, just that.

Most clients don't know the difference between f/2.8 and f/5.6. Hell a lot of photographers don't know the difference. And to top it off, direct flash has been used by everyone with their own point and shoot camera, so they are used to photos looking like that.

I'm I were you, I'd tell him to find him self a new employee. You obviously aren't getting anything from this. Go shoot weddings on your own for 100-300 euros and deal with the clients yourself. Get all of the artsy shots, and all of the standard posed shots. Get some experience at weddings, and with cheap clients and then start shooting real weddings and hire your own second shooter. I don't really see why you posted this if you aren't going to take anyone's advice. Sounds like he is getting all the benefit, and a lot of it for free!

If you already have been to 8 weddings as a second why don't you try and shoot one on your own? For free or at least for really cheap so you can have your own portfolio if you want to get into weddings.

Davidoff wrote in post #5898627
Aram, his business doesn't really work like that. He shoots what's going on troughout the day to put in the album. So, it doesn't really matter if they're artistic or not, it's what the bride is getting in the end. What he sells are the photos that are taken of the guests with the bride and groom, usually here everyone gets their shot taken with the b&g and then buys it later, just normal snaps. That's what he's worried about selling.
I'm not comparing him to an artist, I'm just saying that there are purely technical mistakes and often other mistakes, that shouldn't happen, just that.

The weird part of your comments is that it sounds like he makes money and has enough business that has several people lined up and working. Odd, you would think someone who doesn't deliver what the B&G want wouldn't book so much.

I still stand by my last statement, keep your head down and learn as much as you can and go do a couple of on your own on the cheap side, and expand from there. Although I hate the saying but sometimes, you can't teach an old dog new tricks, and its sadly true in this case.

P.S. VERY important, I hope you didn't sign anything saying that you can't compete with him. Also make sure you keep the copyright on the photographs that you shoot, especially if he isn't paying you. That's a start of your portfolio.

Aurora, that's my plan eventually, but I don't want to jump in because I don't really have experience with portraits 1 on 1 or with a couple, he always does them.
Aram, he does have enough business, but that doesn't mean that the work is very good does it ? Lots of people just want someone there with a camera and don't really care about the final work. Anyway, I don't want to circle around this subject again.
I do, I'm trying to pick up whatever I can, planning on doing my own stuff later on. That really is the case here.
I didn't sign anything, but I can't keep copyrights nor the photos I shoot, he doesn't allow it and takes all the cf cards back with him on the day. That's really annoying. He's paying me, but miserably, as in about 100$ a day.