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Thread started 22 Apr 2008 (Tuesday) 03:07
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UK Legal Question re Photography!

 
unfazed
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Apr 22, 2008 05:35 |  #16

TeeJay the whole world is full of competition. I'm sorry this guy felt my 15 pictures were a threat to his livelihood and take it as a back handed compliment ie: if my pictures were crap he would have laughed his socks off and thought no more of it...but...I spent 2 grand on my equipment..I worked for it..I look after it and in the main I can use it as and where I like. If I choose to share the results online that's up to me..it's a free world (unless you're in Tibet).

I'm not sure I could earn as good a living from it as I do from my current work although if I felt I could I would give it a go as it would be ultimately more pleasant then dealing with drunks, druggies and severed body parts etc....but as in any business I would have to expect some healthy competition wouldn't I?




  
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unfazed
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Apr 22, 2008 05:38 |  #17

Nanscombe wrote in post #5379293 (external link)
Hmm,

Well, you learn something different every day.

It would seem that since Trespass, in the Uk, is a civil matter the Police would not have had any more power than the owner to evict someone from their site.

However, I would imagine that, if the behaviour of the person being evicted escalated into physical or verbal abuse the outcome could be somewhat different.

Nigel

Nigel absolutely spot on mate..if there was a liklihood of a 'breach of the peace' which means threatening to cause harm to someone or their property in their presence then there is a power of arrest. If the subject became abusive or physical then you could have a substantive offence of public order or assault which again would mean a quick trip down the nick!




  
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jpwone
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Apr 22, 2008 07:09 |  #18

The issue is between the 'official photographer' and the organiser. You have no contract with the organiser or with 'the official photographer'. Tell him/her that they need to address their concerns to the organiser and not yourself.

There is all sorts of confusion about copyright and usage at the moment. Basically you own the copyright - that does not mean you can do with them as you want but means that no one else can assume any rights for usage or otherwise unless you specifically grant them those rights. Usage is a whole different kettle of fish. They can be used editorially but cannot be used commercially ie. you can sell usage rights to the local newspaper but you cannot sell prints to the local gift shop to resell nor can you sell the images as stock images without the required releases (personal and/or property). A grey area is the resell of prints for own use. Established practise is that you can sell prints to those featured in the prints and this is not regarded as commercial use. If this was not the case all event and wedding photographers would have a hell of problem as they would have to get releases signed by all attendees to give the happy couple their prints!

Copy right does not give you the right to do as you wish with an image it gives you the right to control the use of the image within the usage limitations of the images.

I'm not a lawyer etc etc.


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Burrelly
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Apr 22, 2008 07:33 |  #19

TeeJay wrote in post #5379279 (external link)
OK, so try leaving your job, setting up as a full-time photographer (assuming you are that good) and try earning your living from your photography.

THEN we'll see how pissed off YOU are when some weekend shooter tries to take your custom!

TJ

It is this kind of attitude that annoys me. If I am the photographer for an event in an official capacity bu there is a "weekend shooter". If someone prefers a shot they have taken compared to one I have then so be it he has taken the better or proffered shot he deserves the sale.

It is no different if you are a high street studio or commercial photographer. If you have the best work at the right price you get the job.

Live with it :)


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exile
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Apr 22, 2008 12:43 |  #20

jpwone wrote in post #5379590 (external link)
The issue is between the 'official photographer' and the organiser. You have no contract with the organiser or with 'the official photographer'. Tell him/her that they need to address their concerns to the organiser and not yourself.

There is all sorts of confusion about copyright and usage at the moment. Basically you own the copyright - that does not mean you can do with them as you want but means that no one else can assume any rights for usage or otherwise unless you specifically grant them those rights. Usage is a whole different kettle of fish. They can be used editorially but cannot be used commercially ie. you can sell usage rights to the local newspaper but you cannot sell prints to the local gift shop to resell nor can you sell the images as stock images without the required releases (personal and/or property). A grey area is the resell of prints for own use. Established practise is that you can sell prints to those featured in the prints and this is not regarded as commercial use. If this was not the case all event and wedding photographers would have a hell of problem as they would have to get releases signed by all attendees to give the happy couple their prints!

Copy right does not give you the right to do as you wish with an image it gives you the right to control the use of the image within the usage limitations of the images.

I'm not a lawyer etc etc.

This is pretty much bang on. The only thing I would add is that in the case a ticketed event and the terms and conditions specify no photography then if you are asked to stop then you must.

I was at an event recently. I was taking pictures from the public area, but a steward invited me (I didn't ask him either) to enter the cordoned off area. He said, just don't cross the yellow line into the course. 30 minutes later I was approached by the media manager - he asked me what I was doing, explained who he was and asked me to stand in the public area. I complied, no questions asked. Neither did he insist I stop taking pictures nor try to otherwise impede my usage of any images. Why? He couldn't, it was public property and no term or conditions were specified (apart from that he seemed a reasonable bloke).


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Gary_Evans
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Apr 22, 2008 12:50 as a reply to  @ Burrelly's post |  #21

You havent named the official photographer, but simply by describing the situation I can narrow it down to two companies - and can be pretty sure which one of those two it is!!!

As someone with a vested interest in earning a living from event photography I will simply say that you dont have a leg to stand on.

You can quote legalese but you do not have the right to sell your images. The event organiser has a contract with another company and these are a lot tighter than you may think. The fact you have different shots from a different location is irrelevant.

Sorry, but you will have to do as the official tog says. Its nothing to do with whos shots are better, its business pure and simple.

Finally, do I agree with their tough stance? Actually yes, as I said earlier I have a vested interest.


Gary
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Nanscombe
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Apr 22, 2008 13:09 |  #22

Gary_Evans wrote in post #5381532 (external link)
You can quote legalese but you do not have the right to sell your images.

So I take that to mean that as long as the images are not sold, the official photographer can shout himself hoarse and then go jump in the proverbial lake?

Sorry, but you will have to do as the official tog says

WHAT POSSIBLE authority does the photographer have over you? The Event organiser maybe, through a civil action in the Courts, but the photographer?

Nigel


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Cadwell
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Apr 22, 2008 13:25 |  #23

Unless the event organisers imposed a condition of entry which either prohibited photography or limited photography with a restriction to personal use only, you are entitled to do whatever you wish with your photos. For such a condition to be effective there has to be a reasonable expectation that you were made aware of it. That basically means either printed on a ticket or on signs displayed at the entry.

Whatever contracts may exist between the event organisers and the "official photographer" are irrelevant. They are in no way binding on a third party.


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Stocky
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Apr 22, 2008 13:32 |  #24

I am not too familiar with the UK, but in the US I would tell the "official" photog "screw you and the horse you rode in on!"
I would also ask the person what grounds they think they have to order you to take down the pictures. If they paid extra to be the photographer at an event that allowed open access then I would guess that its a poor business decision on their part. There may well be a contract that states he will provide images for the event organizer, but I think he would be hard pressed to give you a real reason that you couldn't sell your own images.
My bet is that he knows he doesn't have a leg to stand on, but thinks you will take down the pictures anyway. I am pretty sure there is nothing illegal about him telling you to take down your pictures just like there is nothing illegal about you telling him to get bent.


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ghosh
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Apr 22, 2008 14:59 |  #25

Burrelly wrote in post #5379679 (external link)
It is this kind of attitude that annoys me. If I am the photographer for an event in an official capacity bu there is a "weekend shooter". If someone prefers a shot they have taken compared to one I have then so be it he has taken the better or proffered shot he deserves the sale.

Yes definitely but if there is an offer for which I need to pay and book in advance. Then I will make sure that for that little thing for which I paid, I get to use it only.

Why should I let you use? let, you be better but who are you?


#include <iostream>
int main() {
std::cout << "POTN is the best." << std::endl;
return 0; }


  
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ghosh
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Apr 22, 2008 15:06 |  #26

unfazed wrote in post #5379073 (external link)
Clearly it's a compliment to my artistic skills...but as you say they are MY pictures. The thread on the official event forum has been removed which I would probably agree is fair enough but for him to order me to stop sharing my pictures online is in my view a bit of a liberty!

The same thing that they feel. Just because they let the spectators take picture and you happen to be one of them. you cant go about giving it any body and every body in the name of perpetual right or copy right or liberty and ruin their business.

They paid for it, they got the right, let them do a poor business and not let you know in advance....what ever. Now that you know. Should do what is ethically right.

I would say. if you sell your images then share the revenue.

sorry if you find my comments little harsh.
thanks
G


#include <iostream>
int main() {
std::cout << "POTN is the best." << std::endl;
return 0; }


  
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exile
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Apr 22, 2008 15:09 |  #27

ghosh wrote in post #5382443 (external link)
Yes definitely but if there is an offer for which I need to pay and book in advance. Then I will make sure that for that little thing for which I paid, I get to use it only.

Why should I let you use? let, you be better but who are you?

That's fair enough. If you have made a commercial arrangement with a venue and they have agreed to provide you with exclusive access, then you have the right to expect that the venue will provide you with what you have paid for.

The problem is that if the venue doesn't provide you with what you have paid for, then your remedy is through the venue - either by getting the venue to provide you with what you paid for, or by giving you your money back. You don't have any legal power to directly prevent anyone else from taking pictures.


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andrew748
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Apr 22, 2008 15:09 |  #28

which event?

was it a 3 day event?

i used to work in horse trials and know a lot of the organisers still
pm me the details and i'll see what i can do, if anything.


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SlowBlink
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Apr 22, 2008 22:00 |  #29

I didn't know trespassing was a civil complaint in Britain. Here in Canada it's criminal and you can use whatever force is reasonably necessary to remove the person from your property. I don't see how the even photog has a hope of getting you to remove anything if you're not offering or marketing the images for sale. Unless of course you were taking the photo's without permission. That's the tricky part because getting in to an event and not being stopped from shooting isn't an indication of whether or not it's permitted.

We need a full time photog lawyer here who can spend all day answering my dumb questions.;)


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amfoto1
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Apr 23, 2008 11:53 |  #30

Hi,

I'm not an attorney, and I'm not shooting in the UK....

But I do photograph this type of event, as the official photographer under contract to the organizer, and I think I understand quite well where the commercial photographer in this case is coming from...

It doesn't have to do with the fact that you took the photographs. As others have said, anyone can do that in a public venue, and in fact, in many private venues, so long as there is nothing prohibiting it. Bothersome, but not something that commercial photographer can really say much about.

Nor does it have to do with you displaying your images on your website. Again, a bit of a thorn in the side, but not something they can comment about.

It even has nothing to do with whether or not you offer the images you made for sale, if that's what you are doing on your website. That would be a slightly bigger thorn in the side, but still pretty much out of the other photographer's control.

I believe it boils down to just two things really at issue here:

One is common courtesy. More on that in a moment.

The other is that you have posted on the organizer's blog about your photos and, even if passively, promoted your work competitively against the contracted photographer's. This is bound to be in violation of the agreement between the organizer and their photographer. It's the organizer's blog, which they pay to put up online and maintain, and thus is theirs to do with as they see fit. You should remove your posting and images from that blog. If you don't, I imagine the organizer will.

Now, the official photographer still might ask you to remove your images from the Internet entirely (i.e., your own website) and maybe even threaten legal action, but I doubt they have any leg to stand on. It's probably just bluster.

But, the question of "what's right" is another thing entirely.

Please do have some respect for the guy who is trying to feed himself and his family with his photography, no matter what else you might think of him. This sort of work does not pay huge sums, there's not a lot of profit to go around, and a lot of the work is being done purely "on spec".

It's quite easy to drop in at a show and take 15 shots like you did. It's another thing entirely to arrive before the first competitors do and work at making photographs until the last ones leave in the evening, trying to get a good selection images of each and every one of them at their personal best, all the while toting around 30 lbs of camera equipment. Now do that at each of perhaps two to four events any particular organizer holds in a year, and in turn multiply that times a half dozen or more different organizers that a photographer might work with. You have to really enjoy the work to keep doing it and producing fresh images year after year.

Overall, I handle the hobbyist shooters at my events fairly easily. (Heck, I've even led groups of them there, as an instructor.)

I usually have access to areas that they don't. This allows me to get shots they can't.

I also use more professional equipment than the vast majority. (BTW, your "two grand" is just a drop in the bucket, even in Sterling, sorry to tell you.)

And, I have years of experience that helps me get better shots, sometimes using techniques they're unfamiliar with, other times just knowing more precisely when to press the shutter release, and all in the safest possible manner for the participants.

Still, it can be pretty disheartening to drive 50 miles pre-dawn to shoot a show that you've contracted for, work a 12 hour day knowing that there will be another couple days spent editing and uploading thumbnails from the 700 to 2000 images I'll take... And then have a "proud Dad/lawyer/photo hobbyist" show up driving his $80,000 Hummer H2 towing a $25,000 horse trailer with $30,000 worth of horse flesh inside along with another $10,000 in tack and costume changes for his 12 year princess... And totting a 1D Mark III with the price tags still hanging on it, and a bag full of L-Series glass, with which he shoots not only his daughter but everyone else's... At 10 frames per sec., so some are bound to turn out... Offering everyone there free prints of his photos!.

This is precisely what happened to me recently. And so far my print sales from that particular show don't cover the cost of gasoline getting there and back.... Let alone compensate me for the time I invested, put food on my table, help pay the rent or offer anything toward my mortgage payment, or insurance premiums, or eventual replacement of my cameras and lenses, or any of my other costs of living and doing business!

And, to rub salt in the wound, this guy who's giving prints away free "just for fun" could obviously very easily afford to buy prints from me. (I'm confident my shots are better.... For one, he obviously didn't know what "fill flash" was... Not that he could use it effectively at 10 fps, nor did he appear likely to know how to use it safely around horses.)

Now, this example was a new show for me, working with the organizers for the first time. It was on private property and I'd discuss the situation with them before agreeing to shoot another of their shows.

I have a couple other strategies to deal with proud parents with camera phones, or toting point n shoot digitals or, increasingly, D-SLR kits. None of my tactics are harmful or injurious in any way, but I won't go into the details here. ;)

Still, "Mr. Freebie" is pretty hard to deal with. :confused:

At most of the venues I shoot, whether public or private, once they realized what he was doing the organizer would have pulled him aside and quietly asked him to have please some respect for others who are there working at their trade. That's a fair request, I think, even though I'm pretty biased. (After all, I'm not stopping his clients outside the door to his law offices and providing them free legal advice, in lieu of them paying his fees.)

Most organizers place a value on and are supportive of the photographer who is committed to being at all their shows, year in and year out, regularly providing high quality services to their participants/clients in a professional, affordable and safe manner. I never "share profits" or "pay a percentage", only rarely have paid a vendor fee up front or tithed part of my profits to a church. But I do help out organizers by allowing some use of my photos and in many other ways, whenever I can and it's to our mutual benefit.

I hope you'll excuse me now. I have back to back shows this coming Saturday and Sunday to prepare for.

Cheers!


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UK Legal Question re Photography!
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