Wedding with 20D and 580ex II

Has any one shot a wedding with a 20d and 580ex II? So far I hate my 580ex II. Maybe I just dont know what I'm doing with it and that is why I am begging for help. I used to shoot 35mm with and old Nikon FM2 and a vivitar 283 flash mounted on a stroboframe bracket with wonderful accurate exposures. Life was much simplier then. Digital is a totally different world. I have been reading the board about over and under exposure using ETTL on the bride & groom because of the extreem differences of the white dress and black tux. metering on ETTl will try to make everything 18% gray. AV mode shoots with too slow shutter speed and creates blur? Shooting manual seems too complicated for a fast pace wedding? Any suggestion from the pro's would be appreciated. Also looking for fill flash methods for outdoor shots using this equiptment and asking oppinions for best wedding lens. Any help would be greatly appreciated

I never, ever use ETTL....always manual. The 20d and the 580EX II will be fine, just bounce the flash. The only thing I change during a wedding is the ISO and shutter speed, I usually keep the aperture at 2.8 unless it's outside or shooting formals where more DOF is needed.

Denise, it's one reason I will never own a 580, or anything dealing with ETTL ..
Why not use the old Vivitar 283? That was a great/fabulous flash ..
Lots a folks still use um as well ..

Read the stickies in the flash section.

And read this website:

http://planetneil.com/​tangents/

All these where taken with 20D and 580ex........all shot with camera in manual mode and flash set to ETTL with a -2 to -3 FEC .............
Whats wrong with using ETTL?

HOSTED PHOTO
please log in to view hosted photos in full size.

Hey Denise welcome...

I sense your frustration...cause I was right there with you (and still am to some extent...).

100% agreement with the planet neil link. Can't recommend him highly enough for explaining how to effectively use on camera flash (Canon or Nikon) in a wedding environment.

If in Av I treat the flash as fill. In Av or Tv you are telling the camera to expose properly for subject and background. It doesn't know if you have flash planned for the scene or not.
If shooting outdoors in bright light and in Av I'm thinking of two choices:
1 - Stay at/or under the max sync of 1/250 for the 30D by stopping down considerably, lowering my ISO and using the flash exp. comp. (FEC) to dial in the proper amount of fill.

2 - If you want to maintain some shallow DOF when shooting outdoors in bright conditions with flash then your shutter speed will probably be over 1/250 which means you gotta go into High Sync mode on your flash. I use it but many feel it gives less consistent flash output from click to click. I think it burns through batteries a little quicker too. But sometimes I don't want to shoot at f/16 outdoors with fill and I'll certainly go to High Sync, and open up the aperture more if I want to toss a distracting background more OOF.

Either way, if the overall tone of the scene is light in color then you might be starting at 0 FEC and possibly adjusting up a bit to get the white dress properly exposed. If overall scene is darker tones then your starting point for fill flash might be -1 FEC. and go down from there. The FEC values are really rough starting points for me and it really depends on scene.

If tones are mixed (dark suit and white dress) it's a little tougher but I tend to still error on the side of more flash then less mainly because I shoot RAW and would rather overexpose the light tones (white dress) to the right of the histogram (without blowing out the dress) and bring exposure back down in post (I guess a form of exposing-to-the-right) vs. dealing with an under exposed dress that looks dull gray and bringing exposure values up in post and revealing noise. Personal taste and style here.

Another point before I forget. The LCD lies. It's a lying, cheating dawg!:p To this day I get fooled by the LCD on every shoot. Images always look darker than the really are even with LCD brightness turned all the way up. If you haven't already, I'd suggest getting real familiar with your histogram reading and set the playback review of the camera to show you the histogram. When I started reading my histogram better I felt more confident about the exposures I was getting.

Any ghosting you're getting is the result of your shutter speed being to slow and allowing too much ambient light onto your subject, while also hitting them with flash. Two exposures in one image.
Of course the flash burst will 'freeze' certainly any movement your bound to come across at a wedding. Remember in Av you are telling the camera to stay open long enough to properly expose the whole scene...subject and background.

This is why I usually won't use Av in these situations and I'll drop my camera into manual mode and bring in just enough ambient to light the background some, but not enough to really register on the subject. That is handled by the flash in ETTL.

Don't give up on the 580ex II yet. Once you get to understand it's nuances, however funky it may be to many, you'll be able to control your light.

Just shot a wedding with a 5D (20D was 2nd camera) and a 580. Loved the 580. The ability to shift this flash down on the fly is amazing. I shot it on ETTL the entire wedding, and simply shifted it up and down during the day as I needed it. Press center button, spin wheel, press center button, done. Quite literally a 3 sec. process.

I shoot manual most all of the time, but that is sort of how I learned. Shooting Hassy's for years, I simply had no choice, and so still do that today. However, I sometimes use Av mode as well. But mostly, I can set the shutter (around 1/15th to 1/60th) and the aperture (generally f/4 or wider - as mentioned above f/8 or so on the larger groups) and simply leave the flash on ETTL. That's the beauty of the system. BUT, you have to trust your flash. AND, you need to shoot it enough that you get comfortable with changing it on the fly and knowing when, etc.

What's your background? How many weddings, etc?

Thank you guys for all your helpful suggestions. Life was so much simplier with 35mm and the good old vivitar 283. I guess I just have a lot to learn in getting good digital exposures. Since I only have three months to get it all down as second nature, I guess I better get started. I have done 35mm weddings for about 15 years on and off. I think part of the problem is I Don't think the 580ex II gives consistant exposures in ETTL. I guess I just have to play more and keep accurate notes so it becomes second nature. Have any of you used the lightsphere? Posting some shots with this diffuser with the 20D and 580 ex would be greatly appreciated. Sco1971 those shots look good. Did you do any post processing? What shutter speed and fstop did you use for these and did you use the flash pointed at you subjects, diffuser, bounce card?
Jgogums, you are so right about the LCD. I found that out a while ago. Thanks for all the great info.

I respect anyone who has got the 580 to work in manual and can change the settings fast enough.

I use ETTL on my 580II and just dial +1~ to begin with since I know it underexposes when there is significant contrast in the frame (white dress, black suite).

Then I just work from there with the FEC or via ISO, ap, shutter to get the light I want.

I did do a few test shots with the 580 on Saturday on manual and found it difficult to dial it in. I'm no expert but I can use my Sunpak 383 a lot faster in manual when compared to the 580 in manual. Maybe I need more practice, who knows

Denise Z wrote in post #5388031
Thank you guys for all your helpful suggestions. Life was so much simplier with 35mm and the good old vivitar 283. I guess I just have a lot to learn in getting good digital exposures. Since I only have three months to get it all down as second nature, I guess I better get started. I have done 35mm weddings for about 15 years on and off. I think part of the problem is I Don't think the 580ex II gives consistant exposures in ETTL. I guess I just have to play more and keep accurate notes so it becomes second nature. Have any of you used the lightsphere? Posting some shots with this diffuser with the 20D and 580 ex would be greatly appreciated. Sco1971 those shots look good. Did you do any post processing? What shutter speed and fstop did you use for these and did you use the flash pointed at you subjects, diffuser, bounce card?
Jgogums, you are so right about the LCD. I found that out a while ago. Thanks for all the great info.

Thanks Denise,post processing was done in lightroom and then exported to photoshop CS3 where i just did some curve adjustments and boosted color and added some contrast with a sharpen at 20 PIXELS 60 RADIUS and then a little noise reduction (cause they were shot at 400 ISO) i find it softens the skin a little............then sharpened 100pixels at 1.5 radius and thats it.

Exposures where 1/400 sec @ f4.5 with a FEC about -2 or even -3.....i do not remeber.......but somewhere around there.........and flash pointed strait on......i was about 20' away from subjects.

yep, base exposure with a 580 and 20D is +1 FEC, adjusting depending on subject. It isn't perfect, but it's not that bad. I set the flash custom function so you only have to turn the wheel to adjust FEC (13 I think). Shooting camera in manual still puts flash in auto, but allows you to control shutter speed and aperture.

If you look at the front of the 580EX II, you will see it has an External Metering Sensor just like your Vivitar 283 did.

You can use the 580EX II it in exactly the same way you use a Vivitar 283. It is Custom Function 5-2. Check it out on page 27 and 30 of your manual.

msowsun wrote in post #5409959
If you look at the front of the 580EX II, you will see it has an External Metering Sensor just like your Vivitar 283 did.

You can use the 580EX II it in exactly the same way you use a Vivitar 283. It is Custom Function 5-2. Check it out on page 27 and 30 of your manual.

True enough, except the sensor-based metering totally doesn't work on 580EX II's. i.e. it under-exposes vastly.

i love ettl but not when doing something like a wedding, too many changing factors in that situation - always go manual.

Cyrus wrote in post #5411939
i love ettl but not when doing something like a wedding, too many changing factors in that situation - always go manual.

Sounds like a good reason to go auto + FEC to me. I currently use E-TTL for the vast majority of my flash work, including off-camera. And I shoot weddings