Soft Egrets

Hey gang;

Tried to shoot some Egrets, they all seem soft to me. All with 70-200, 1.4tc, handheld.

Any tips to get sharper images appreciated!

Thanks

I really like the first one - don't know if sharpness would improve it's effect.

The second one is the type of shot that people expect to be sharp.

I don't have enought experience to comment on the 70-200 w/ET - but should be lots of info around here.

According to the metadata in your images, you shot in auto exposure mode, with an ISO of 800 (first shot) and 1000 (second shot) at f/4 and full zoom (280mm). You also shot with spot metering. First question: are the images you posted the full frame or are they cropped versions? I'm guessing you shot JPEGs instead of RAW. Second question: what was the resolution setting for the JPEG mode in the camera? The images you posted are pretty small and have a lot of visible JPEG artifact - that combined with the noise form the high ISOs makes it difficult to assess the pure image. Also, the egrets are underexposed, so you may not be getting the contrast that you are looking for. It is a tough shot, because the sky is playing havoc with the metering too (even in that nice evening light) and I can see some fringing around the bird as well (especially once you start to apply some curves in PP). Maybe experimenting with manual exposure would help, or changing your angle relative to the setting sun. Post a section of a 100% crop, especially of the wings and the head/beak area. The wings give a good appreciation of the noise in the image and the head and beak give nice lines that show the edge effects of the JPEG artifacts. Shooting RAW will give you "soft" results (no in-camera sharpening) but will give you more latitude with post processing (including sharpening), so your final image will be able to withstand manipulation without degrading as much.

I shoot with that lens and also have the 1.4x extender. Going with 2x seemed to limit the aperture, so your choice to go with 1.4x was probably the right one. In these images your are at the limits of the system though (280mm and f/4). It would be interesting to see if there is any image degradation for this combination while shooting a still object at a similar distance with better exposure. You may want to consider a monopod for that lens combo, allowing you to lower the shutter speed and ISO a little and get more light onto the sensor with less noise. DId you use IS for these shots?

Beautiful captures nonetheless, especially under tough conditons.

Kirk

What was your Shutter Speed? If you have enough SS and you focus in the right place and your equipment is working properly, then your images will be sharp, at least at the point of focus.

My exif-reader's reporting 1/1000th of a second for both pictures. Seems suboptimal for the top shot, especially if you had IS, a monopod or tripod - I expect you could have lowered your ISO back to say 200 and still been better off. Second shot's harder as there's more movement to freeze, but I'd still say your ISO was too high. But then, I don't have a 40D so I'm not sure of the noise levels. I don't like to go above ISO 200 on my 400D (which has the same sensor minus some fine tuning), while in general the 5D seems happy enough at 640 or even higher. It's a shame about the IQ, as they'd be top notch photos otherwise.... cheers, Tony

kirkt wrote in post #5394400
First question: are the images you posted the full frame or are they cropped versions? ...Second question: what was the resolution setting for the JPEG mode in the camera? ....DId you use IS for these shots?

Beautiful captures nonetheless, especially under tough conditons.

Kirk

Hi Kirk; Thank you for the comments; Yes I shot JPEG, I guess I should get in the habit of shooting RAW. Yes IS was on for these shots. They were all shot at the highest resolution in JPEG. Yes they are cropped. The 280mm does not provide enough reach.

Jim Neiger wrote in post #5394435
.... If you have enough SS and you focus in the right place and your equipment is working properly, then your images will be sharp, at least at the point of focus.

Hi Jim; I agree with your statement, hence why I posted since I believe my equipment to be working.

tonydee wrote in post #5402691
...Seems suboptimal for the top shot, especially if you had IS, a monopod or tripod - I expect you could have lowered your ISO back to say 200 and still been better off. ... It's a shame about the IQ, as they'd be top notch photos otherwise.... cheers, Tony

Hi Tony;

Thanks for the comments. I agree about the SS, being a noob, I am still struggling with my settings. I guessed at a fast shutter speed to freeze any action, but probably went overboard. I think a monopod would have helped tremendously, but this was a spur of the moment think and I did not bring it with me.

After thinking about it for a day or two, could the spot metering have lead to under exposure and all the noise in the back ground? It was dusk and was getting dark rather quickly. With any luck the birds will be there later this week and I will get another crack at them!

Hi Jeremy,

I don't think metering was a problem per se. The exposure's quite nice - nothing blown, and nothing overexposed, sky with a bit of colour - just a bit low in contrast/range (that's where the dusk conditions come in). Be looking forward to hearing how you get on if you do go back.

Cheers, Tony

Hi Jeremy,

I am a noob too and please take everything I say with a grain of salt...

I was having the same type of problems with SOFT bird images with my XTI and 70-200mm f/4 IS USM + Canon 1.4x/TC...

My first outing I went looking to shoot some birds and I had the same reults as you did...

On my second outing it was the same...

Another member here told me to go and shoot a bunch of "stills" at anything and in different types of lighting conditions and at different aperture settings to find where your lens shoots its crispest and most sharpest...

I did that yesterday and discovered EUREKA....grins

It makes a whole lot of difference in my shots...

I found my glass is sharp and crisp in a certain Zone and Range and everyone's gear will be a little different...My lens shot crisp f/8-f/11 range...And tack sharp at f/9-f/10 in between the range...Again, this is with my 1.4x/TC...

If I shoot the lens without the TC it shoots crisp wide open and up some...Its a great lens by itself!

Now I know my sharpest range for my lens and this is where I will work it...I will stop it down or bump it up according to my creative needs and in regards to the SS I'm looking for while using my ISO as a 'governor" so to speak to get my shots with the proper exposure....

So try this and I know it will help you in knowing your camera set-up with or without the TC...And stay in YOUR zone...grins

I share this cause being a noob it gets mind-boggling at times and with all the research trying to learn this puppy all it takes is to know a few parameters then learning what you can do from that baseline IMO...

The other thing about getting soft images in my first two outings was that I was shooting at birds that were under a canopy of trees and the spotting of diffused lighting was not conducive in getting the best out of my images...

I thought it would be as it looked OK to my newbie brain...But my shots of these birds were still SOFT and not what I expected as I spent my hard earned $$$$ for this cr*p...I was really disappointed and bewildered to say the least...

Then someone here told me the lighting was a bit too low and not giving enough contrast for my AF to lock on securely and hence the soft focus....

You know what?

Day three's outing was not PERFECT for some other skills I need to learn like reducing camera shake but my images were a 1000% BETTER shooting my images of birds that had better light on them. Yes, a 1000% times better, why?

Because I took those two tips from a couple of our generous helping forum members here!

I shot my birds in better light and within the Crispest ZONE for my lens set-up...

That extra bit of reflective light and added contrast on the birds and taking my images in that ZONE allowed me to take my best images to date.

Now I'm really excited and anticipating the fun in getting better images every time out in the field. I got something to work with now and my skills will only develop leaps and bounds henceforth...

I was also told by one of those two members to practice shooting off-hand...As a noob I already bought my Manfratto Tripod and Manfratto Monopod as an investment...But, you know what in my three outings I have progressively gotten MUCH better at hand-holding and I love the shooting VERSATILITY it gives me under field conditions...In fact, I might even consider selling the monopod at this point...Three outings @ 3-4hrs per and I'll be shooting off-hand SOLID in another couple or so outings...Its exciting!

As noobs we want to get that shot the FIRST time out! We are all that way! Then, we get frustrated when it doesn't happen because our images don't look like the SPECTACULAR ones seen on the Birds Forum here...I've come to a new realization and I have my feet touching the ground now....Hey you know what my friend they didn't get that way over-night and neither will we...grins...its just a fact me and you gotta come to terms with and once that's done...Learning will become that much more fascinating and thrilling after the results of each succeeding trip out...

So I write all of this to encourage you!

Have some FUN and just shoot and come home and study what's happening looking at your histogram and shooting history for therein lies the secrets in your and my success..As we learn to interpret all of this we will learn FASTER and how to bring this knowledge into the making when we are in the field!

I've learned a lot in just three outings with no prior knowledge of photography except for studying and researching here and befriending a couple nice members who were more than generous in their help and support...Simply incredible and exceptional forum members...I couldn't be where I'm at right now without them...There HEART to SHARE their skill and talent has been a humbling experience in praise of their generosity!

They are the reason why I chose to reply to your thread or else I never would have as I'm a noob myself!

But, I realized I MUST for these tips just might help you in your quest for perfection and satisfaction...

PM me if you would like to discuss this further as I'm here to share the VERY little I know in gratitude for what these other gentlemen have done for me!

And yes IMO our lenses are too small for what we want...IQ will degrade because of heavy crops...I'm going to learn on this for now and then maybe invest in the 100-400mm as many birders are taking some spectacular images with them with NO Tele-Extenders as the 1.4/TC does give the lens some IQ degradation albeit not as much as the 2x/TC from what I understand...Its just how much you can live with and how good one is at PP to create a stunning image nontherless....

As a fellow noob I wish you the best!

Aloha,

Roland

Thanks for the comments, Tony and Roland.

I got out last night a bit earlier than my previous shot, got to the pond and there were no egrets Luckily my daughter spotted them in the next pond north of us.

I decided to shot RAW, with a monopod and the same 70-200 with 1.4TC. I am a bit clueless in processing my RAW images, I used DPP, upped the exposure a bit, upped saturation and cropped. Converted to JPEG and resized. I would like to think these are better, but I think I have a long way to go.

Again comments and criticism appreciated and thanks for all the encouragement!

Hi Jeremy,

They're all nice shots, but too overexposed. You can't trust you meter for this, because the bird is so much brighter than the background. Technically, a camera exposes the shot based on the assumption that the metered area is mid grey on average (because it can't tell the difference between something white in a dark place and something almost black in a bright place, so it's got to make some assumption or other). So, your picture over all is nicely exposed, but that leaves the bird way too bright. It's actually good for this kind of picture to have your background darker, so the bird "pops" out a bit. Just set your EV to -1 or -2 and you should be right. You may be able to do this with the RAW images, and recapture some of the highlights (you'll know if you've been unable to because they'll typically go pink instead). Do this, and you won't have the flat white areas in the images where there's just no detail or texture visible - like the body in the 2nd shot and right wing/front body in the 3rd. Best idea is to review your images immediately after you've taken them, and use the "display" button to vary the information presented. One of the modes should make overexposed areas "blink", so you can see if you've got it all ok. You can practice this by aiming the camera at something dark, then hitting the exposure lock button ("*" symbol), then aiming at a light bulb or something. Cheers, Tony

Judging from the light in the first shot, it was near sunset or sunrise. Except for the highlights on the wings in the top one, the bird was in the shade. So I think you're dealing with poor light. Hand held shots of moving subjects will always be soft in my experience. When I loaded them into PS Elements, for some strange reason, I saw them in the browser as uncropped. So I could see that they are about 40% crops, which will enhance any softness already in the image. Egrets are a tough subject.