Full exposure

Wow I seem to have touched a nerve with some people!

yogestee wrote in post #5457411
siejones,,,camera exposure meters measure what is called 18% Reflectance Grey..18% Reflectance Grey is a tone of grey that is reflected off the subject while 82% is absorbed..

Your point is? Are you trying to tell me you know how a meter measures works? I thought everyone past the point of beginner knew this. This is not the whole story.

Again why bring this up? To show me you know? Well done. I had already stated that this was not what I was going to write about. These are the basics of exposure.

I really don't get this. Are you just trying to tell me you understand the basic's of metering? I get the impression you are actually trying to tell me how to meter. This is strange considering what I have said.

Yes you can get a feel from experiance and many photographers who have never learnt to expose to proper accuracy first time have been happy to continue that way occasionally making the odd mistake but you are wrong if you think this is the only way. You can pre-visualise every given circumstance of exposure and get it right first time. The zone system did this and the right understanding of how to meter and reading a scene can.

PhotosGuy wrote in post #5457699
That was very useful for sheet film, but now we have RAW which works pretty well and eliminates the need for "measurebating", doesn't it?

This just goes to show that you don't understand the zone system at all. Getting exposure right by even one stop is better than RAW. If you think you actually do get the same effect by increasing or decreasing RAW exposure as doing it for real then you are under a misguided impression.

Ansel Adams was asked in the 1950s if he thought the Zone System was still relevant in that then-modern world. He replied "If you don't use the Zone System, then what system will you use to know what you've got as you photograph?"

Same applies.

Measurebating to get exposure right?...Please

It was clear from the thread https://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthre​ad.php?t=86497 that you yourself were struggling to understand the outcome of the various metering modes. Did you think the camera was at fault and that these modes produced odd results that wern't to be trusted? Nope if you understood how that meter works then you would understand why they came out like this and would have even been able to predict the outcome.

I really have trodd on some toes here havn't I?

tracknut wrote in post #5458252
I'm curious as to why you say "...allow you to pick up any film camera..." If your tutorial actually only relates to film, it may have limited value here?

Dave

Are saying you only have to expose correctly with film and not digital? This is exactly why I thought this article would be appropriate on here.

airfrogusmc wrote in post #5458302
If you can expose film properly and can pre visualize a scene you can surely do it with digital because its the same principles. Why do you think most college photography programs start you with film? It is relevant. Good exposure is good exposure.

Thank you

siejones wrote in post #5459107
Are saying you only have to expose correctly with film and not digital? This is exactly why I thought this article would be appropriate on here.

I'm saying you need to know exposure for film *and* digital, which is why I questioned your "...pick up any film camera..." limitation in your original statement. I realize (now) that you aren't intending on restricting yourself to film, but that isn't how I read the initial intro you made to this topic.

Dave

By the way, I certainly am looking forward to reading and learning from your article!

Dave

I'm sorry guy's it seems I have stepped on the "experts" toes here and upset some when my intension was only to help. I see now that whatever I write would just be controversial and to be honest I can't be bothered to put up with that. This would be a lot of work for me as it is mind numbingly hard to put into words and if this is an examply of the reponce then it isn't worth my while. Shame.

Maybe it wasn't a good idea after all. Nevermind.

Just one last thing to consider and what Ansel Adams was saying in the above quote. The zone system wasn't just about getting the best balanced exposure. Modern matrix metres come close that now. It was about being able to pre-visualise a scene and knowing what you could do with it. When you understand it you can not only balance a scene using a spot meter but you can then go on to choose (and this is the key here) how YOU want to expose it. It is called creative exposure and every top photographer knows how to manipulate it. It's understanding that a small dynamic range while limiting in some aspects can be used to you advantage and every top photographer that has every lived know this wether they are using film or digital. Remember everytime you have seen an image that was not a balanced exposure but worked so well and thought how the heck did they do that? How did they know to expose it that way? Did you think it was just fluke? Nope.

tracknut wrote in post #5459142
I'm saying you need to know exposure for film *and* digital, which is why I questioned your "...pick up any film camera..." limitation in your original statement. I realize (now) that you aren't intending on restricting yourself to film, but that isn't how I read the initial intro you made to this topic.

Dave

Sorry I just read the other threads and got the hump. I started with digital and could never have picked up a film camera knowing I could produce the exposure I wanted. All I was saying is that I can now.

I probably would have learned something from your treatise, but at what cost.

Your thin skin and egocentric attitude sure put me off, kinda a "my way or the highway" thing.

I learned it 40 years ago, so don't bet on it.

I see most of the people here needing a simple, easily explained system that works 98% of the time. My link above in post #5 & Expose (to the) Right cover common exposure situations which are still misunderstood by a large % of our members.
There's nothing wrong with promoting "creative exposure" using a more complicated process, but I suggest that you consider your larger audience, & see what you can do to help those people out.

PhotosGuy wrote in post #5460263
I learned it 40 years ago, so don't bet on it.

I see most of the people here needing a simple, easily explained system that works 98% of the time. My link above in post #5 & Expose (to the) Rightcover common exposure situations which are still misunderstood by a large % of our members.
There's nothing wrong with promoting "creative exposure" using a more complicated process, but I suggest that you consider your larger audience, & see what you can do to help those people out.

I would agree.

It seems to me that a fair percentage of the folks here don't have a really good grasp of the basics of exposure control and metering. I suspect that if automated metering suddenly disappeared from our cameras, a lot of the folks here (primarily those who weren't around in the days of nothing but manually operated film cameras) would be in real trouble.

Thus, an easily understood primer that covers all of the basics in an easily understood fashion is what I think is needed most.

siejones wrote in post #5459175
I'm sorry guy's it seems I have stepped on the "experts" toes here and upset some when my intension was only to help. I see now that whatever I write would just be controversial and to be honest I can't be bothered to put up with that. This would be a lot of work for me as it is mind numbingly hard to put into words and if this is an examply of the reponce then it isn't worth my while. Shame.

Maybe it wasn't a good idea after all. Nevermind.

Just one last thing to consider and what Ansel Adams was saying in the above quote. The zone system wasn't just about getting the best balanced exposure. Modern matrix metres come close that now. It was about being able to pre-visualise a scene and knowing what you could do with it. When you understand it you can not only balance a scene using a spot meter but you can then go on to choose (and this is the key here) how YOU want to expose it. It is called creative exposure and every top photographer knows how to manipulate it. It's understanding that a small dynamic range while limiting in some aspects can be used to you advantage and every top photographer that has every lived know this wether they are using film or digital. Remember everytime you have seen an image that was not a balanced exposure but worked so well and thought how the heck did they do that? How did they know to expose it that way? Did you think it was just fluke? Nope.

siejones,,,,you need to take a deep breath...Repliers to this thread including myself were only putting there ideas forward in an attempt to help YOU..Maybe your questions were misconstrued for this I apologise, maybe you didn't make your questions clear..

Now in an attempt to sort this mess out,, tell us what you understand about exposure..Then we can put our heads together, exchange ideas..

airfrogusmc wrote in post #5457861
The basics of the zone system and a good working knowledge of those basics can be very useful because just like in the days of film you can do SO much more with a properly exposed image.

airfrogusmc,,,I agree..To understand the Zone System fully you also need to understand the relationship between exposure and development and I talking black and white here..The relationship between exposure and development is call "Sensitronomy".. Sensitronomy was a 2 semester subject when I studied photography at college..

The Zone System relates to tonality..Each tone of black and white being put into a specific zone..Without careful development tonality as does contrast can change,,,over or underdevelopment will move a specific grey tone up or down along the scale..One has to remember this is also subjective,,depending on the photographer's style, taste etc he/she could put any tone into any zone within reason..Also,,there are thousands of different tones of grey..

Now my question for the learned in these forums,,Is the Zone System relevant in today's digital photography??

chauncey wrote in post #5459303
I probably would have learned something from your treatise, but at what cost.
Your thin skin and egocentric attitude sure put me off, kinda a "my way or the highway" thing.

Nice!

At what cost? What a strange thing to say.

Maybe thin skinned but egocentric? If this refers to me thinking I am right then yes I do know I am right. Unlike the subjectivity of photography that can be philosophised and argued over exposure is a science that can be controlled and nailed. I know I am right because I can do what I claim....simple.

PhotosGuy wrote in post #5460263
I learned it 40 years ago, so don't bet on it.
I see most of the people here needing a simple, easily explained system that works 98% of the time. My link above in post #5 & Expose (to the) Right cover common exposure situations which are still misunderstood by a large % of our members.
There's nothing wrong with promoting "creative exposure" using a more complicated process, but I suggest that you consider your larger audience, & see what you can do to help those people out.

If you understood the zone system the metering article that you posted would not exist. It's as simple as that.

I read through the stickies on here and realised that nobody had gone past the basics of exposure and I thought I could help contribute to that.

So what you are saying is that this is a forum for beginners only and a more advanced class would not be appropriate or useful? Fair enough. Duely noted.

Taking the next step to better photography is all about being creative and when you get to this level exposure plays an important role that is not to be underestimated.

yogestee wrote in post #5460714
siejones,,,,you need to take a deep breath...Repliers to this thread including myself were only putting there ideas forward in an attempt to help YOU..Maybe your questions were misconstrued for this I apologise, maybe you didn't make your questions clear..

Now in an attempt to sort this mess out,, tell us what you understand about exposure..Then we can put our heads together, exchange ideas..

Ok maybe I bit back a bit hard and I apologise but you have to understand this.

If I had a theory that I wanted to share and bang heads with others then I would have just posted it and awaited replies. This is not what I was offering. As I have already stated in another reply exposure is a science and can be nailed. I don't have a theory on how to do it. I know how to do it. I do it every time I pick up a camera. You know that 1+1=2 right? You wanted to teach someone who you knew didn't know it. Would you put it up for debate or would you just tell them? If they told you you were being egocentric for say you knew you were right and not prepared to waver becuase you understood math to a degree that you knew there was no other answer then how would you feel about that? Thanks but I am not sure how what you said was helping me.

When it clicked for me it was a revelation and I wanted to at least try and share that with others. Not everyone will get it and some will only brush the surface and think they get it but does that mean I shouldn't try to explain?
As you can understand now I am a bit wary of doing it now.

yogestee wrote in post #5460875
airfrogusmc,,,I agree..To understand the Zone System fully you also need to understand the relationship between exposure and development and I talking black and white here..The relationship between exposure and development is call "Sensitronomy".. Sensitronomy was a 2 semester subject when I studied photography at college..

The Zone System relates to tonality..Each tone of black and white being put into a specific zone..Without careful development tonality as does contrast can change,,,over or underdevelopment will move a specific grey tone up or down along the scale..One has to remember this is also subjective,,depending on the photographer's style, taste etc he/she could put any tone into any zone within reason..Also,,there are thousands of different tones of grey..
Now my question for the learned in these forums,,Is the Zone System relevant in today's digital photography??

Part of the zone system involved how to strain at least 2 extra stops out of black and white film using various development methods and paper types but that's not all it was about by a long stretch. It just meant that the range Ansel Adams had to play with was more like 10 stops as oppose to 8. With digital it's more like 5-6 at best but that doesn't mean it doesn't apply anymore. I didn't state I was going to write an article about the zone system but it would have helped me to explain the different metering modes.

Did you know in his later years that Ansel would critisise other for using exposure bracketing? He said that if you understood exposure properly you wouldn't need too. That's how accurate he could nail exposure!

You have answered your own question here. Yes it is subjective as to how you choose to expose certain elements of a scene and that's exactly what creative exposure means but if you don't understand it you can't do it. Again I will refer you to the quoted question and reply posed to ansel adam's I posted earlier. The questioner asked Ansel if the zone system still applied with modern cameras and he replied saying "but how will you know what you are photographing without it". He was saying how can you pre-visualise a scene and the way it will turn out on you chosen media in the time before you press the button without a method of understanding how to do that. Without that knowledge you are just excepting the balanced exposure the camera will try to achieve for you. Is that the best exposure? Sometimes it might be but others you won’t be getting the best from a scene that could have benefited from a more creative exposure approach.

Many think that Ansel achieved the beautiful photographic effects just in the dark room but this would be wrong. Yes he spent a lot of time perfecting his developments using various methods but remember his restraints. Dodging and burning was not an accurate affair at all and could not be controlled on the smaller and finer detail. In fact every frame of film he decided to keep and print came with a set of instructions for the developer to use to create the print. This means unlike digital each and every print is unique and will be slightly different to the last. A romantic idea but it just tells you how unexacting these methods were. So now go back and study his work. Do you really think he could do everything in the darkroom. No he did it in camera using creative exposure. In fact he created a system so he could quickly understand how best to achieve his vision in the field.

Does it apply in digital...yes! and here's why. A creative exposure that goes to the extremes of the dynamic range can be either very hard to emulate in photoshop or just not possible at all. Just getting a balanced exposure from a scene of extreme an luminance range is sometime not enough. There are scenes like this that you will walk past thinking the camera technically can't capture and you would most probably by right! This is where you can get creative and to do this you need to know how to and to know how to is to truly know exposure and metering.

Your question has been answered several times & I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't try to put words in my mouth.

You've made your point that you know everything there is to know about exposure. However, your narrow, self serving interpretation of what we've said here leads me to the conclusion that nothing we say will affect your decision at all, so I'm locking this thread as further discussion has no added value.

Feel free to post your tutorial, or not, as you prefer.