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Thread started 06 May 2008 (Tuesday) 16:20
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Event (Dance Competition) Question

 
amfoto1
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May 08, 2008 14:19 |  #16

I also shoot events as a part of my business.

And, from my own personal and biased point of view, yes, of course I'd like to see more restrictions on photography. But, I don't demand it of organizers and I am pleasant or even helpful to amateurs and parents shooting alongside me. (Note: In most cases I do require that I'm the exclusive commercial photographer authorized to shoot the event, but that's another matter.)

However, there are a number of very good reasons for event organizers to put restrictions on photography, besides my photo business success.

Safety is a key one. I've just seen too many people wandering with their cameras into places they shouldn't, and causing problems that could have been avoided. I've seen people use flash when they most certainly shouldn't (and I'm not). A single, professional photographer is less likely to cause problems, especially if they know the sport or event well, know when and where to go, and are well versed how to shoot it safely and without disruption.

Another consideration is kids... Whenever they're participants in any event, an organizer has to be concerned about exactly who is in the audience taking pictures and why. Pedophiles are the first thing that comes to mind, of course. But also consider the booming business of micro stock and royalty free images, and the amateur photographer market that feeds it. Any image might end up anywhere today.

Both the above go toward liability. The organizer has to think about that, and needs to minimize their own risk, and that of any sponsoring organization. And, when the lawsuit happens, it will be the deeper pockets of the organizer, the venue and any sponsoring organization that will be named co-defendants along with the amateur who they allowed to take the photo, or who caused injury by being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Also, an organizer needs to put on an orderly show without disruptions. In many cases that means the audience sitting in their seats watching. If there are a dozen parents up and wandering around in front of the rest of the audience during the show, angling to get that "perfect" shot of little Johnny or Suzie, the rest of the audiences' viewing and enjoyment of the show might be obstructed.

Now, you might scoff at the above points and rightfully say that you'd never cause any problems. But, how does the organizer know that? You might even say you've never seen any photo-related issues at any event you've personally attended. But, it only takes one or two in a hundred - maybe even one in a thousand - to create some serious problems the organizer will have to deal with, perhaps even to the extend of threatening the organizer's business. Problems that could easily have been avoided, by restricting photography.

Yes, I do sell some photos to people who are at events with their own cameras. Some serious amateurs toting D-SLRs ask me how I managed to get a particular shot and end up buying from me anyway. In fact, serious amateurs are often the most appreciative of the shots I display at events, and make a lot of positive and kind comments. The P&S crowd sometimes are disappointed with their results and end up my customer, too. The camera phone user... well, let's not even go there.

However, it does effect sales very noticeably. Maybe some are embarrassed to admit that they didn't get a decent shot (sorta like stopping by the market to pick up a couple trout after an unsuccessful fishing trip). Or there's stubborn pride that "they can do it" and "there's always the next time". Or, perhaps it's just that since they were shooting, they didn't bother to make a purchase onsite, or to pick up my business card or brochure and don't' know where to find my images online.

Sometimes it's even more dramatic. One of the least profitable events I've shot this year had a proud Dad wandering around with a brand new 1D MkIII and kit of L-series lenses. He was not only photographing his daughter's participation, but everyone else's daughters and sons, aunts, wives, nephews and mothers, too. And, worse, he was offering free reprints to anyone and everyone there! He was snapping away at 10 fps and odds are got some good shots, although his editing and post-processing must have been a real nightmare! (I took about 700 shots, I would have estimate he took at least 5 times as many.)

Now, this guy can afford to buy photos. He's a lawyer in one of the most affluent counties in the U.S., driving a bright yellow Hummer H2 towing a $25,000 horse trailer with two $25,000 horses in it, along with tack supplies and several $500 costume changes for his kid. (Hey, maybe I should show up on his office doorstep, greeting his clients and offering free legal advice - just my opinions, of course, since I'm not an attorney - and handing out info about Nolo Press or any other DIY legal resource I can think of.)

A good organizer wants to provide a suite of services, including photography, to his "customers": the participants and their families. So the organizer needs a photographer who will commit to doing the job, show up on time, stay the full day, get good shots of all the participants and handle everything professionally. They need someone who will not only be at this event, but also the next one and the one after that, and whose work they know and can trust.

Amateur photographers run amok may or may not be there week in and week out to take the photos, may or may not produce usable photos, may or may not get shots of all the participants, and, most certainly, will undercut the sales of the pros hired by the organizer.

With profitability gone, the pro photog will either stop contracting to provide services at that organizer's events, going elsewhere in search of more profitable business, or keep trying but go out of business for lack of sufficient sales. The professional photographer has a large investment in equipment and time, which they need to get a reasonable return upon, or they'll simply have to look for other work. Either way, the organizer loses an important resource.

Does this really happen? I can assure you it does. A venue I was at a week and a half ago asked me if I knew a videographer. Theirs had canceled on them. Just too many people were now shooting their own videos, making it unprofitable for the guy to come and serve the other participants.

Also, an ongoing, working relationship between the organizer and photographer can provide a sure source of images the organizer will need for future event promotion or other marketing efforts. Amateurs who just happen to show up at a show or two and shoot only portions of the event are not a very reliable resource for this sort of thing, either.

So, for the long run and consistency, for safety and out of concern for kids, plus for their own liability and to protect one of their resources, an organizer has a lot of valid reasons to restrict photography, besides the most obvious and selfish appearing ones.

Over the years, experienced organizers have seen all kinds of pro photographers at their events, and value a good one whom they can trust. So they tend to be supportive of them. I appreciate that and reciprocate as best I can... And I somewhat dread the other kind of "organizer" (i.e, the volunteer parents committee).


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CyberDyneSystems
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May 08, 2008 14:21 |  #17

I would not argue that it was overly restrictive..

But, it is not a right. The promoter in essence OWNS these events, it is there property just as you photos are yours.

Many promoters may not have such concerns, but the more expeienced ones tend to.
If it was a dance company performing a ballet, no one would question the artistic property there.

To a promoter, an event is an event, and some would not want to see the event that they stand to lose the $ on (and/or of course gain) used to profit someone else without a cut.

It's strict, it's even cut throat at times, but the bottom line is the bottom line. If someone is going to profit from the promoters hard work and risk, ...
IT's sort of the bizz.. some aspects of it anyway.

rsmedley wrote in post #5486144 (external link)
I have a bit of a different twist on the subject. This past weekend I was hired by 5 parents to shoot their kids at an equestrian event. And yes there was an official photographer and videographer at the event. I really didn't give it much thought because I was hired directly by these parents to shoot both still pics and video of their kids (I do both, without an assistant). Well, when I showed up Saturday morning promptly and set up my 25K+ worth of equipment I was ran off by the promoter who stated he would not allow ANY one to shoot at his events besides the "official" photographer and videographer. I was a bit surprised as I was only there to shoot for the people who hired me. I have mixed feelings about this. I'm aware the photographer and videographer pay the promoter for the privilege of shooting his event, but I'm also aware of that the participants pay in excess of $1000 each horse to compete in the event and feel they should have to right to hire a private shooter if they want (me for example). I can definitely see the need to restrict "over the shoulder" freelance shooting but in this case I think it was a bit overly restrictive.

My two cents...


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sidx001
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May 08, 2008 15:38 |  #18

rsmedley wrote in post #5486144 (external link)
I have a bit of a different twist on the subject.......I can definitely see the need to restrict "over the shoulder" freelance shooting but in this case I think it was a bit overly restrictive.

I've gotten caught a couple of times in the same situation that you speak of. What I do now is contact the venue ahead of time to make sure that I can do the "private" shoots of the clients children during the event. That usually saves me some headaches! ;)

I had one situation where the parent went head to head with the venue and the event photographer demanding that I be allowed to shoot their child. They had paid a lot of money to even have their child in the event and threatened to pull the child and sue the venue if I wasn't allowed to shoot the child from the side lines. It took four other parents joining in to get the venue to allow the photographs to be taken. It was an extremely uncomfortable situation for me as I really felt for the event photographer, but the parents took the whole thing out of my hands. I'm now very careful about how I shoot at different venues!

PS, I just read amfoto1's comments.....they are dead on!!


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rsmedley
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May 08, 2008 15:43 |  #19

CyberDyneSystems wrote in post #5486307 (external link)
I would not argue that it was overly restrictive..

But, it is not a right. The promoter in essence OWNS these events, it is there property just as you photos are yours.

Many promoters may not have such concerns, but the more expeienced ones tend to.
If it was a dance company performing a ballet, no one would question the artistic property there.

To a promoter, an event is an event, and some would not want to see the event that they stand to lose the $ on (and/or of course gain) used to profit someone else without a cut.

It's strict, it's even cut throat at times, but the bottom line is the bottom line. If someone is going to profit from the promoters hard work and risk, ...
IT's sort of the bizz.. some aspects of it anyway.

You're right the promoter does own the event, which is why I left. However, one of the parents confronted him later because she wanted video and the videographer was never going to shoot video in the arena her daughter was competing in. He advised she should shoot the video herself or even a relative of hers. So, I've now become her favorite cousin ;)


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rsmedley
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May 08, 2008 15:45 |  #20

sidx001 wrote in post #5486780 (external link)
I've gotten caught a couple of times in the same situation that you speak of. What I do now is contact the venue ahead of time to make sure that I can do the "private" shoots of the clients children during the event. That usually saves me some headaches! ;)

I had one situation where the parent went head to head with the venue and the event photographer demanding that I be allowed to shoot their child. They had paid a lot of money to even have their child in the event and threatened to pull the child and sue the venue if I wasn't allowed to shoot the child from the side lines. It took four other parents joining in to get the venue to allow the photographs to be taken. It was an extremely uncomfortable situation for me as I really felt for the event photographer, but the parents took the whole thing out of my hands. I'm now very careful about how I shoot at different venues!

PS, I just read amfoto1's comments.....they are dead on!!

Yes, and in this case several of the parents' kids were competing in arenas where the videographer wasn't shooting. They were understandably upset that I wasn't allowed to do the shoot (esp since they paid in excess of $1000 to compete).


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rsmedley
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May 08, 2008 16:04 |  #21

amfoto1 wrote in post #5486291 (external link)
Sometimes it's even more dramatic. One of the least profitable events I've shot this year had a proud Dad wandering around with a brand new 1D MkIII and kit of L-series lenses. He was not only photographing his daughter's participation, but everyone else's daughters and sons, aunts, wives, nephews and mothers, too. And, worse, he was offering free reprints to anyone and everyone there! He was snapping away at 10 fps and odds are got some good shots, although his editing and post-processing must have been a real nightmare! (I took about 700 shots, I would have estimate he took at least 5 times as many.)

Now, this guy can afford to buy photos. He's a lawyer in one of the most affluent counties in the U.S., driving a bright yellow Hummer H2 towing a $25,000 horse trailer with two $25,000 horses in it, along with tack supplies and several $500 costume changes for his kid. (Hey, maybe I should show up on his office doorstep, greeting his clients and offering free legal advice - just my opinions, of course, since I'm not an attorney - and handing out info about Nolo Press or any other DIY legal resource I can think of.)

Maybe you should. As far as I know there's nothing illegal about it (but then again, IANAL :lol:. Seriously, that's just competition even if it is a parent shooting. Just because a person can afford the photos doesn't mean he should be ripped off at $40 a pop for 4x6 prints (which is what I've seen some charge). Photogs who do this are getting the competition they deserve in my opinion.


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amfoto1
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May 08, 2008 19:14 |  #22

rsmedley wrote in post #5486960 (external link)
Maybe you should. As far as I know there's nothing illegal about it (but then again, IANAL :lol:. Seriously, that's just competition even if it is a parent shooting. Just because a person can afford the photos doesn't mean he should be ripped off at $40 a pop for 4x6 prints (which is what I've seen some charge). Photogs who do this are getting the competition they deserve in my opinion.

If he were just shooting his own kid, I'd agree. Nothing can be done.

However when he spends the day shooting everyone else's kids too and giving them his card so they can get free prints from him, that's pretty inconsiderate of the photographer who was actually hired to shoot the event.

$40 4x6s are silly, but free is at least as ridiculous. There's no way anyone can compete with that. (And I charge $7 for 4x6s online, $8 on-site. But, the 5x7s are a better deal at $10 and $11 respectively.)

I didn't make enough profit on that event to cover the cost of gasoline, let alone a long day's work. By rights, I fault the organizer, who was someone I hadn't worked with before. He should have pulled the guy aside and had a word with him. Oh well, lesson learned.


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rsmedley
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May 08, 2008 19:35 |  #23

amfoto1 wrote in post #5487934 (external link)
If he were just shooting his own kid, I'd agree. Nothing can be done.

However when he spends the day shooting everyone else's kids too and giving them his card so they can get free prints from him, that's pretty inconsiderate of the photographer who was actually hired to shoot the event.

$40 4x6s are silly, but free is at least as ridiculous. There's no way anyone can compete with that. (And I charge $7 for 4x6s online, $8 on-site. But, the 5x7s are a better deal at $10 and $11 respectively.)

I didn't make enough profit on that event to cover the cost of gasoline, let alone a long day's work. By rights, I fault the organizer, who was someone I hadn't worked with before. He should have pulled the guy aside and had a word with him. Oh well, lesson learned.

Well, look on the bright side. After he sees what it takes to process several hundred photos for free, it won't happen again. I understand what you mean by making nothing but gas money. That's why I'm trying to shift to a "contract for hire" business model versus a "toss a dollar in my music case" model.


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May 09, 2008 07:15 |  #24

I agree that amphoto1's comments are right on. I have been contracting out to event photographer's for almost 7 years now. I have seen so many changes in the event business that it isn't funny. I have been bumped, pushed, elbowed, bruised, had equipment kicked by overzealous parents with professional/prosumer equipment "just taking photos of my kid" so I can understand the frustration of the event photographers. I was shooting one event and even had one parent have the nerve to come up and ask to borrow one of my lenses. (I will admit that I lost it on that one.) Sometimes it seems that everyone with a DSLR and a lens thinks they can be a professional photographer.

For every parent like Blane there are at least 5 who are jerks so it is understandable that the "official" photographers can get a bit testy. Even though this is a hobby for some parents you are messing with someone's livelihood. Its one thing to shoot your own kid but when someone hands out cards and gives away photos it is something else. Event photographers have lots of things to worry about. Insurance (both gear and liability), travel, extra photographers, wear and tear on their equipment, not to mention putting food on the table for their families, clothing their spouses and children, paying the mortgage, and all of the things that everyone else here has to worry about. Being an event photographer is great fun but it is also lots of work.

While some rules may seam unfair when judged on a case by case basis just remember that the event organizers and photographers have to do this on a week by week basis. I usually suggest that parents leave the camera at home and just be the proud parent enjoying their children perform. Just a perspective from another side.

Michael


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May 09, 2008 09:46 |  #25

sidx001 wrote in post #5484761 (external link)
The important thing is that I don't begrudge the parents etc to shoot what they want. I even move out of the way for them most of the time so they can get a shot. you know, it's amazing how many of those parents will come up at the end of the meet and order a CD?!

Good point.


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May 09, 2008 09:59 |  #26

mspringfield wrote in post #5490480 (external link)
I was shooting one event and even had one parent have the nerve to come up and ask to borrow one of my lenses.

Michael,

Hope he/she didn't ask for your 200mm f1.8.


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May 09, 2008 12:06 |  #27

mspringfield wrote in post #5490480 (external link)
I was shooting one event and even had one parent have the nerve to come up and ask to borrow one of my lenses. (I will admit that I lost it on that one.)

I'm sorry, but that there is funny I don't care who you are (to quote Larry the Cable Guy)...:lol::lol::lol:


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May 09, 2008 20:13 |  #28

bobbyz wrote in post #5491223 (external link)
Michael,

Hope he/she didn't ask for your 200mm f1.8.

Almost as bad. My 70-200 IS.


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May 09, 2008 20:14 |  #29

rsmedley wrote in post #5491885 (external link)
I'm sorry, but that there is funny I don't care who you are (to quote Larry the Cable Guy)...:lol::lol::lol:

LOL It is now.. :lol::lol::lol:


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May 09, 2008 20:55 |  #30

If you are a PRO photographer, you know how hard you have to work in order to make a living in this business. I don't care if people think it is fair or not, you should respect the fact that people are working while you are enjoying watching your kids dance. If you don't like the rules, don't put your daughter in the competition...

I understand where you are coming from on this, but I ( a wedding photographer ) really dislike when I am shooting group shots and people are trying to get in the way while I am posing the wedding party to take a shot...I WOULD HAVE A RULE STATING THAT NOBODY ELSE COULD SHOOT WHILE I AM SHOOTING, but I feel as if it would do more harm than good in the "wedding" scene. I feel the pain of the event photographer on this one.


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