Event (Dance Competition) Question

mckc wrote in post #5494636
If you are a PRO photographer, you know how hard you have to work in order to make a living in this business. I don't care if people think it is fair or not, you should respect the fact that people are working while you are enjoying watching your kids dance. If you don't like the rules, don't put your daughter in the competition...

Wow. What a strange view on the rights of parents. So, if they can't shoot shots of their own kids you think this okay? Then you deserve all the competition you get!

mckc wrote in post #5494636
I understand where you are coming from on this, but I ( a wedding photographer ) really dislike when I am shooting group shots and people are trying to get in the way while I am posing the wedding party to take a shot...I WOULD HAVE A RULE STATING THAT NOBODY ELSE COULD SHOOT WHILE I AM SHOOTING, but I feel as if it would do more harm than good in the "wedding" scene. I feel the pain of the event photographer on this one.

Learn to compete with these "distractions" or go out of business. Sorry, but that's my take on this.

mckc wrote in post #5494636
I understand where you are coming from on this, but I ( a wedding photographer ) really dislike when I am shooting group shots and people are trying to get in the way while I am posing the wedding party to take a shot...I WOULD HAVE A RULE STATING THAT NOBODY ELSE COULD SHOOT WHILE I AM SHOOTING, but I feel as if it would do more harm than good in the "wedding" scene. I feel the pain of the event photographer on this one.

You think it's unreasonable, not me. I politely request no one take pictures while I do as it becomes a distraction at weddings. But then I also step aside when compllete to allow them a minute to snap a few.

I have never had any problem as no ne wants to be the one to ruin a wedding picture.

But I should also add that normally before this happens I do speak louder when distractions begin causing wedding parties to look at another photographer while I am preparing. Once I get their attention it doesn't matter if others shoot and they usually respect the distraction they created and become more careful.

As far as this entire debate has gone, just hearing the stories from other photographers and what they have faced, I'll make sure before accepting another event as this I check into the expectations and if no rules restrict another photographer, then normally two photographers well versed have no problem with respect and keeping out of the others way and not cutting into sales, except for those who hired you.

RandyMN wrote in post #5494809
You think it's unreasonable, not me. I politely request no one take pictures while I do as it becomes a distraction at weddings. But then I also step aside when compllete to allow them a minute to snap a few.

I have never had any problem as no ne wants to be the one to ruin a wedding picture.

But I should also add that normally before this happens I do speak louder when distractions begin causing wedding parties to look at another photographer while I am preparing. Once I get their attention it doesn't matter if others shoot and they usually respect the distraction they created and become more careful.

When I am done shooting I don't mind if they snap a few shots, but usually I am trying to get this done as soon as possible and it really annoying when everyone comes up and wants to snap a photo. When you let one person take a photo, everyone else will want to take one as well. Group shots that involve a lot of people can be annoying because if one person isn't looking into the camera, that shot is ruined...I would rather not deal with it.

rsmedley wrote in post #5494669
Wow. What a strange view on the rights of parents. So, if they can't shoot shots of their own kids you think this okay? Then you deserve all the competition you get!



Learn to compete with these "distractions" or go out of business. Sorry, but that's my take on this.

It is funny that you say this is a strange view, yet this is the same view that the company that this person is talking about. YOU CAN'T MAKE EVERYONE HAPPY. There is always going to be an upset parent so the just because a few people don't want to buy photos from the pro's at the event doesn't mean they should change the rules.

I obviously have learned to compete with the distractions or I would not be shooting photography for a living, but nice try... I would just rather not have to...

I never said I agree with this rule. I shot a national cheerleading competition with a company down in Orlando, Fl and they did not care if family members that had cameras shot pictures from the stands. Everyone has different ways they do business and if you don't like the way someone is doing it, don't deal with them.

RandyMN wrote in post #5494839
As far as this entire debate has gone, just hearing the stories from other photographers and what they have faced, I'll make sure before accepting another event as this I check into the expectations and if no rules restrict another photographer, then normally two photographers well versed have no problem with respect and keeping out of the others way and not cutting into sales, except for those who hired you.

Randy,

That is an excellent idea. When I am shooting an event I usually don't have a problem with someone coming up and shooting their kid as long as they come up and talk to me to let me know. Its when they try to sneak their camera gear in that it appear as if they are doing something wrong and I get suspicious that they may be trying to compete with me by selling. I once caught a dad who I knew was also a professional wedding photographer trying to sneak in his pro gear and got him kicked out by the event coordinator. I ran into him later at an event I was trying to get a contract for. He recognized me and chewed me out for getting him kicked out and told me that I had no right to stop him from shooting his child. I turned it around on him. Told him that I understand and wouldn't think about stopping him if I had known for sure that was what he was doing. Then I asked him how he would feel if I walked into a wedding he was shooting with all of my gear and started shooting without talking to him first and then tell him that the bride was my sister. Call it professional courtesy. He got it. For the next 2 years while his daughter was performing he would actually seek me out before she performed, talk to me and we would end up shooting side by side.

I guess the moral of my story is: Don't try to sneak your gear in, talk to the photographer if there is one. Most of the time we don't mind at all. Also remember that there are some photographers who will be a jerk about it but they are the exception and not the rule and most of the time they are just insecure about their skills.

Michael

mckc wrote in post #5494636
If you are a PRO photographer, you know how hard you have to work in order to make a living in this business. I don't care if people think it is fair or not, you should respect the fact that people are working while you are enjoying watching your kids dance. If you don't like the rules, don't put your daughter in the competition...

I understand where you are coming from on this, but I ( a wedding photographer ) really dislike when I am shooting group shots and people are trying to get in the way while I am posing the wedding party to take a shot...I WOULD HAVE A RULE STATING THAT NOBODY ELSE COULD SHOOT WHILE I AM SHOOTING, but I feel as if it would do more harm than good in the "wedding" scene. I feel the pain of the event photographer on this one.

You know, I posted this message because I realize that there are there are other points of view concerning this issue that differ from my perspective and initial reaction and I simply wanted to do what I could to see both sides. Having said that, I think perhaps you need the additional perspective much more than I do.

1. I think I pretty clearly stated that I always try to respect a working pro and that I would never knowingly do anything to jeopardize their livelihood. I don't need you to tell me how I should behave. Guess what? The studio had their "official" pictures take this week. I didn't even bring my camera with me. Can you believe it? On the other hand, from the tone of your post, it seems to me like you almost have a disdain for your clients/subjects. Maybe you should take your own advice when it comes to respect.

2. I also did not ask for not do I need any advice on what I should or shouldn't do with my daughter. Again, if you were to read (and comprehend) my initial post, you'd see that I clearly said that I enjoyed watching my daughter dance regardless of the photography rules. It is absurd to even suggest that I would pull my daughter out of a competition because I couldn't take a picture. You have clearly overblown this whole situation.

3. I am quite confident that with most people I know, if they were forced between having a photographer at their weddings or having family and friends there instead, there would be a lot of high-end cameras collecting dust. While it may certainly be challenging for someone in your position to work around all those annoying loved-ones of the bride and groom, weddings are first and foremost an event meant to celebrated by those in attendance. If you really despise all those aunts, uncles, bothers, sisters, etc. so much, perhaps you'd be happier staying in the studio.

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I really appreciate all of the feedback this thread has generated (on both sides of the coin). I do want to point out that I never, at any time, blamed the pro photographer hired to shoot the competition for the fact that they didn't allow any other cameras to be used. She was just doing her job. That was clearly (I thought) a function of the Talent on Parade organization. That is why I went to talk (very politely) to their staff about their rules. I never even spoke to the event photographer as she clearly had a lot on her plate at such a fast-paced event.

Also, amfoto1 (great post BTW) mentioned safety and need to put on an orderly show without disruptions. I'm sure that various types of events differ greatly. But with regard to dance competitions, I had to chuckle a bit a this notion. As I said before, I've found these events to be pretty self-regulating with regard to parents with cameras. At the events I've attended, you probably won't find more than 5 or so parents taking pictures of the stage after about the first half hour. Most simply give up. (You do see a lot of photos in the hall or off-stage where they can use flash.) However, after every dance act, you will see moms literally flying out of their seats and hauling butt to help their kids with their next costume change. If the just completed dance was a large production number, this exodus is more like a stampede. Rogue photographers are nothing in comparison to chaos.

mspringfield wrote in post #5496361
I guess the moral of my story is: Don't try to sneak your gear in, talk to the photographer if there is one. Most of the time we don't mind at all. Also remember that there are some photographers who will be a jerk about it but they are the exception and not the rule and most of the time they are just insecure about their skills.

Michael, I personally have found most photographers to be just like you. As a matter of fact, a couple of years ago at my niece's wedding, the official photographer had seen me taking pictures (not groups that he was working with) and asked me if I would mind helping him out as his assistant wasn't able to make it. During the actual ceremony, he asked if would mind taking some shots from the balcony. Afterwards, I gave him a copy of all of my pictures (some of which he used). He offered to compensate me for the help but I told him I enjoyed helping him and that what I had learned and the advice he gave me were compensation enough. (I do this for fun and at this time have no desire to turn it into another job.)

So like you mentioned about photographers, I think most parents/family/friends are good people who don't intentionally muck things up. I'm sure there are exceptions but I have to believe they are a relatively small percentage overall.

BTBeilke wrote in post #5497232
You know, I posted this message because I realize that there are there are other points of view concerning this issue that differ from my perspective and initial reaction and I simply wanted to do what I could to see both sides. Having said that, I think perhaps you need the additional perspective much more than I do.

1. I think I pretty clearly stated that I always try to respect a working pro and that I would never knowingly do anything to jeopardize their livelihood. I don't need you to tell me how I should behave. Guess what? The studio had their "official" pictures take this week. I didn't even bring my camera with me. Can you believe it? On the other hand, from the tone of your post, it seems to me like you almost have a disdain for your clients/subjects. Maybe you should take your own advice when it comes to respect.

2. I also did not ask for not do I need any advice on what I should or shouldn't do with my daughter. Again, if you were to read (and comprehend) my initial post, you'd see that I clearly said that I enjoyed watching my daughter dance regardless of the photography rules. It is absurd to even suggest that I would pull my daughter out of a competition because I couldn't take a picture. You have clearly overblown this whole situation.

3. I am quite confident that with most people I know, if they were forced between having a photographer at their weddings or having family and friends there instead, there would be a lot of high-end cameras collecting dust. While it may certainly be challenging for someone in your position to work around all those annoying loved-ones of the bride and groom, weddings are first and foremost an event meant to celebrated by those in attendance. If you really despise all those aunts, uncles, bothers, sisters, etc. so much, perhaps you'd be happier staying in the studio.

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I really appreciate all of the feedback this thread has generated (on both sides of the coin). I do want to point out that I never, at any time, blamed the pro photographer hired to shoot the competition for the fact that they didn't allow any other cameras to be used. She was just doing her job. That was clearly (I thought) a function of the Talent on Parade organization. That is why I went to talk (very politely) to their staff about their rules. I never even spoke to the event photographer as she clearly had a lot on her plate at such a fast-paced event.

Also, amfoto1 (great post BTW) mentioned safety and need to put on an orderly show without disruptions. I'm sure that various types of events differ greatly. But with regard to dance competitions, I had to chuckle a bit a this notion. As I said before, I've found these events to be pretty self-regulating with regard to parents with cameras. At the events I've attended, you probably won't find more than 5 or so parents taking pictures of the stage after about the first half hour. Most simply give up. (You do see a lot of photos in the hall or off-stage where they can use flash.) However, after every dance act, you will see moms literally flying out of their seats and hauling butt to help their kids with their next costume change. If the just completed dance was a large production number, this exodus is more like a stampede. Rogue photographers are nothing in comparison to chaos.

First of all...you posted on a PUBLIC forum for a reason. You asked for the working photographers opinion and I gave it to you. Just because you don't like my answer doesn't mean you should get all offended. My post sounded a little more offensive than it was meant to be. It was not directed directly toward you, but toward everyone out there who disagrees with the rules of photography at an event. The moral of my story is, if you don't like the rules...don't play the game. You stated that you challenged the photography rules. You clearly sound frustrated with the whole situation or you wouldn't have come on a photography thread and posted. There are other dance competitions that allow parents to take photos (if you would read my other post you would know this.)

Although I am probably one of the funnest/laid back photographers in my area to work with, I still take my job serious and want the B and G to get the best images possible on their BIG day. I am a very CANDID photographer so the only real time I pose people is for the group shots so during that time I prefer that it moves fast and smooth and having aunt susy and uncle frank pop up every other minute trying to snap pictures when I am posing people can be annoying. Please do not put words in my mouth or make suggestions for me and my business because, from your post, I can clearly see that you have no idea how this business works.

mckc wrote in post #5494636
If you don't like the rules, don't put your daughter in the competition...

Interesting perspective from a professional. If I don't put my daughter in the competition, and I am dissatisfied enough to talk to several other parents (and trust me, parents of these kids get to know each other VERY well) and they pull their children, then there will be no competition. No competition means no JOB for the professional.

Can anyone say "symbiotic relationship?"

Come on now. If you want to survive, do so by providing quality work, not by pretending to be Big Brother and controlling everything. You need the events as much as the event needs you.

PS: This is not necessarily directed only at MCKC, just referencing his quote.

Wow...the sandbox is getting crowded here! This thread started out with questions about how we handle different events where there are parents shooting pictures, or where there is exculsivity etc...Each of us take pictures, some of us do so for a living, and we all have different ways to get those pictures taken. No one is necessarily right or wrong, better or worse, and I heartily believe that each of us understands our business very well or we wouldn't be doing it!! So how about a little less on the flames and a little more on how we can crowd control better? I for one would sure appreciate that!

My daughter also does competitive dance and she dances at alot of the venues where there is no videotaping or still photography allowed. I understand that the costumes and choreography do need to be protected from theft and so I don't even bother bringing my camera. The truth is though some of those parents are completely and totally NUTS. They can't even control themselves with the restrictions that are in place I can't even imagine if they were allowed to take picures. There is no such thing as common courtesy for alot of these parents. Many of the parents are videotaping and taking picures anyway but at least they are doing it quietly so they won't get caught.

mckc wrote in post #5497937
First of all...you posted on a PUBLIC forum for a reason. You asked for the working photographers opinion and I gave it to you. Just because you don't like my answer doesn't mean you should get all offended. My post sounded a little more offensive than it was meant to be. It was not directed directly toward you, but toward everyone out there who disagrees with the rules of photography at an event. The moral of my story is, if you don't like the rules...don't play the game. You stated that you challenged the photography rules. You clearly sound frustrated with the whole situation or you wouldn't have come on a photography thread and posted. There are other dance competitions that allow parents to take photos (if you would read my other post you would know this.)

Although I am probably one of the funnest/laid back photographers in my area to work with, I still take my job serious and want the B and G to get the best images possible on their BIG day. I am a very CANDID photographer so the only real time I pose people is for the group shots so during that time I prefer that it moves fast and smooth and having aunt susy and uncle frank pop up every other minute trying to snap pictures when I am posing people can be annoying. Please do not put words in my mouth or make suggestions for me and my business because, from your post, I can clearly see that you have no idea how this business works.

Yes, I did find your post offensive. I posted on a PUBLIC (I guess I am supposed to yell the word "public") forum because I wanted perspectives that perhaps I had not considered concerning event photography - and event photography only. I didn't ask for any life advice or parenting advice. It is utterly absurd to think that I wouldn't have known going in that some professional photographers wouldn't look at this differently than I had. That was the whole point. The idea that I didn't want opposing opinions is inane. However, none of this implies that I was looking for rude comments. Many people in this thread have posted their opposing points of view and have done so in a very civil and polite manner.

Yes, I was a little frustrated at first. I don't get many opportunities to practice taking pictures in that environment. But, if you read my initial post, you'd see that I said that in the end, I didn't consider it a big deal and that I enjoyed simply watching my daughter dance. Once again, the notion that I came here to vent some sort of bottled up frustration is ridiculous. I still don't agree with the rules but I can see how not limiting camera usage could cause problems in some instances depending on the people and personalities involved.

You are entitled to your opinions whatever they may be. But like I said earlier, I hardly think that whether or not the photographer is annoyed is a prime concern for any bride and groom. You were so quick to point out that if I didn't like the dance rules, then I shouldn't let my daughter participate. Again, you could take your own advice. If you have such disdain for "aunt susy (sic) and uncle frank" and all of the other "annoyances" (read: friends and family of the bride and groom) that go along with wedding photography, perhaps you are the one that should reconsider your choice of a career. The bottom line IMO, is that none of these events are first and foremost about the photographer. However, photographers like you (or at least as you appear due to your comments here) seem to think they are. As another poster pointed out, without the "annoyances", there would be no event photography. I can clearly see that you have no idea how real life works.

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Look, I realize that I don't know you and that the tone of comments made in a written message can be misconstrued. If I misinterpreted your remarks, I apologize.

constantdrmr wrote in post #5498380
My daughter also does competitive dance and she dances at alot of the venues where there is no videotaping or still photography allowed. I understand that the costumes and choreography do need to be protected from theft and so I don't even bother bringing my camera. The truth is though some of those parents are completely and totally NUTS. They can't even control themselves with the restrictions that are in place I can't even imagine if they were allowed to take picures. There is no such thing as common courtesy for alot of these parents. Many of the parents are videotaping and taking picures anyway but at least they are doing it quietly so they won't get caught.

1. Choreography is one thing. I totally agree with the notion of protecting the choreography. Costumes are a whole other issue. TOP stated that as one of their reasons for the camera ban. When I pressed them on it, they admitted it was a weak argument and stated that the real reason for the ban was the presence of a hired photographer. The vast majority of the costumes worn at these events are ordered from the same catalogs that everyone else uses. Yes, there are some custom costumes occasionally, but that is far from the rule. And, have you ever gone to one of the event websites? They have pictures of dancers in their costumes plastered all over those sites.

2. I don't know where you live but I have never seen the kind of totally NUTS parent behavior that you are describing. Maybe that is why the are such different opinions about this whole issue. There has not been a single problem with a single parent at any of the events we attended this year regardless of the camera rules. As I said, this last event was the only one with restrictions and the few parents who did attempt to take pictures seemed to truly not know that they weren't supposed to do so. (They'd been able to at the previous events.) Once told of the rules, they all complied - no problems at all.

BTBeilke wrote in post #5498544
Yes, I did find your post offensive. I posted on a PUBLIC (I guess I am supposed to yell the word "public") forum because I wanted perspectives that perhaps I had not considered concerning event photography - and event photography only. I didn't ask for any life advice or parenting advice. It is utterly absurd to think that I wouldn't have known going in that some professional photographers wouldn't look at this differently than I had. That was the whole point. The idea that I didn't want opposing opinions is inane. However, none of this implies that I was looking for rude comments. Many people in this thread have posted their opposing points of view and have done so in a very civil and polite manner.

You are entitled to your opinions whatever they may be. But like I said earlier, I hardly think that whether or not the photographer is annoyed is a prime concern for any bride and groom. You were so quick to point out that if I didn't like the dance rules, then I shouldn't let my daughter participate. Again, you could take your own advice. If you have such disdain for "aunt susy (sic) and uncle frank" and all of the other "annoyances" (read: friends and family of the bride and groom) that go along with wedding photography, perhaps you are the one that should reconsider your choice of a career. The bottom line IMO, is that none of these events are first and foremost about the photographer. However, photographers like you (or at least as you appear due to your comments here) seem to think they are. As another poster pointed out, without the "annoyances", there would be no event photography. I can clearly see that you have no idea how real life works.

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Look, I realize that I don't know you and that the tone of comments made in a written message can be misconstrued. If I misinterpreted your remarks, I apologize.

The sound of my frustration comes from the fact that I understand how hard it is to try and please everyone. You simply cannot please every person that walks through the door. I never even said I agree with the venue's rules to not let other people shoot. I have shot for a prof. company (as stated before) and they did not have a rule like this. I DO believe that the pro should get better shots than anyone else and should offer a product that people want to buy. I don't even care if uncle frank has a nice camera and is shooting during the wedding because I know that I have the best angle and the B and G paid me to get the best shot. The aunt susy and uncle frank that I do get annoyed with are the ones that try and step in during group shots. I don't expect you to understand how frustrating it can be to be on a tight schedule and have people trying to step in and disrupt things. I like how you keep telling me to choose a different profession...if you want me to quit..I will, but only if you want me to. You don't just pop up and decide "hey...I want to shoot weddings for a living." I obviously love what I do and understand how difficult it can be to please people which is why, even though I don't agree with the rule, I can understand where they are coming from. There is always more than one dance competition or venue. If you and every other mother were to pull their children out of that competition and go somewhere else there would be no job for the photographer...maybe at this time they would change the rule. Even though I would love to not have other people shoot when I am shooting, I know it would not be good for business which is why I do not put it in my contracts.