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Thread started 10 May 2008 (Saturday) 02:32
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Confused...

 
johndevane
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May 10, 2008 02:32 |  #1

With much respect to the great photographers here, who've taught me most of what I know, why is flash a no-no in baseball?

I've heard from MJ that a flash could get in the player's eye's causing him to get hit by a line drive. Makes sense.

But what about these shots...? What's the harm? (Besides Red-Eye) I'm not questioning or trying to argue, just needing clarification. Thanks in advance.


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SportsOnFilm
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May 10, 2008 05:44 |  #2

I shoot action for our local Dixie Youth and I can tell you for a fact that the head umpire has told me (not that I ever use flash for baseball) that there is NO flash photography allowed, and that rule is mostly for the parents who try to get photos with their point and shoot cameras through the fence. As Mike has said, the flash can be distracting/blinding for a batter and/or a fielder, resulting in an injury, and I for one do not want to be responsible for that.


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caroleigh
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May 10, 2008 10:59 |  #3

When I was using a point and shoot on two occassions the games were stopped by the ump to tell me to turn it off. I have never used the flash on my SLR at a game.


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May 10, 2008 11:13 |  #4

Speaking here as a baseball coach, if someone were using direct flash on an SLR or even flash on a point and shoot in a key location at one of my ball games, I would ask them to turn it off. Plain and simple it adds an extra distraction that the kids don't need. At lower levels of ball, maybe it is not so much an issue, but at as kids get older, the speed of the game (especially pitches) increases and it is hard enough for some kids to concentrate on a 40, 50 or 60 mph pitch without a flash going off in their peripheral vision. Similarly, pitchers need to concentrate on hitting the strike zone and again, if a flash is going off from directly behind the screen, or even from off the side, it can be a distraction. In addition, it is a clear giveaway that "oh my gosh, someone is taking my picture..." which then puts additional pressure on the child to perform well since they surely don't want to be photographed striking out or playing poorly.

On a technical side, the flash on a P&S, and sometimes even on an SLR will not "reach" your subjects enough to provide any benefit. You are close enough on the youngsters field in your photo above for this to work a bit, but again as the kids move up, you will be further away from the field and the flash won't help as much.

Keep your flash at home (or turn it off on your P&S) and wait for daytime baseball to get your shots.

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asysin2leads
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May 11, 2008 02:09 |  #5

cstewart wrote in post #5497435 (external link)
On a technical side, the flash on a P&S, and sometimes even on an SLR will not "reach" your subjects enough to provide any benefit. You are close enough on the youngsters field in your photo above for this to work a bit, but again as the kids move up, you will be further away from the field and the flash won't help as much.

Precisely. The zoom range of the 580EX II is 24-105. If you're shooting from the stands, or even the dugout, it won't reach. All you have done is piss off a lot of people and potentially be asked to leave. As a former umpire, I've asked many a parent not to use flash during night games. Especially when they were shooting from behind me and right in the line of sight of the pitcher.


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dmwierz
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May 11, 2008 04:38 |  #6

If you're shooting from the stands, or even the dugout, it won't reach.

First of all, this is simply an erroneous statement. The 24-105mm numbers on the flash head refer to the beam width, not the range of the flash. Flash head zooming is done to allow the flash head to give full coverage over only the area seen by the sensor. Trust me, as one who uses a 580EX every Friday night covering HS football night game, the flash CAN and DOES reach well out past 50 yards. It's not terribly effective out that far, but if one adjusts their exposure quickly enough, and you don't mind getting a little occasional ghosting, it can be done.

From the excellent Web reference site, http://photonotes.org/​articles/eos-flash (external link)

Canon’s mid to high-end external flash units contain small motors which move the flash bulb closer to or further away from the clear plastic screen at the front. This allows the flash to alter the coverage area of the light emitted from the unit - the closer the bulb is to the screen, the wider the coverage angle and vice versa. It also means that the flash’s light output can be concentrated for greater distances and used more efficiently. (ie: you aren’t wasting light by illuminating areas not covered by longer focal-length lenses)

Typically the zooming motor covers the range used by 24 to 80mm lenses or 24 to 105mm, and does so in several fixed steps matching popular prime lens focal lengths, such as 24-28-35-50-70-80mm. (continuous zooming control to arbitrary focal lengths is not supported) Remember that a flash unit’s upper zoom limit doesn’t prevent you from using the flash with longer lenses. All it means is that the zoom can’t concentrate its light beyond a certain point for more efficient coverage of a narrower area. At least, not without a flash extender accessory. The reverse is not true for the wider end, however. If you use, for example, a flash unit with 24mm coverage at the wide end with a 17mm lens you’ll get a kind of vignetting effect (darkening of the edges) since the flash will not be able to illuminate the entire coverage area of the wide angle lens.

Some zooming flashes have manual controls that allow you to override the automatic zoom setting by pressing a button. Others are only automatic - they zoom to a setting near to the current lens focal length when you press the shutter halfway. Canon flash units usually default to a 50mm zoom setting when in bounce mode and to 35mm when no EF-compatible lens is attached.

Most camera bodies with image areas less than that of 35mm film (APS cameras and most EOS digital cameras) cannot compensate for the cropping factor of their image areas. So you are, in effect, wasting light when taking a photo using such a camera body and a zooming flash unit, since areas outside the edges of the picture will be illuminated. This issue has been addressed with later model EOS camera and Speedlite flash units, as listed below. When these flash units are attached to a compatible camera a small nested rectangle icon will appear in the flash unit’s LCD. (note that it appears that a bug limits the utility of this feature when a 580EX is used on an EOS 20D - at 24mm or wider the flash may not zoom wide enough, which may result in some vignetting)

Remember that the flash head will zoom to the nearest zoom setting that is less or equal to that of the focal length of your attached lens. So if you have a 100mm lens attached, say, and the flash unit can zoom to either 80mm or 105mm, then it will automatically go to 80mm only. It will not narrow the light cone down any further by zooming to 105mm, as you would risk getting darkening around the edges of the picture if it did.

Wireless-capable units with zooming heads will zoom to 24mm when in wireless slave mode. Flash units with no manual zoom controls will always shoot at 24mm. However wireless slaves with manual zoom controls can be very useful in wireless mode since they let you set up your slave units around the scene, override the default zoom setting and adjust the coverage angles for each unit independently.

They aren’t so commonly used outside a wireless context but they allow you, for example, to create a sort of spotlight/vignetting effect by narrowing the flash coverage down to a tighter circle than that required by the focal length of the lens. (an intentional use of the problem outlined above) You can also use manual controls to adjust the zoom setting so that you can work with manual lenses which don’t transmit focal length information to the camera.

All Canon flash units which have names ending in Z, such as the 540EZ, contain zooming flash motors. However, mid and high-end E-TTL shoe-mount flash units (420EX, 430EX, 550EX and 550EX) also have zooming heads, so Z Speedlites aren’t the only ones with the feature.

Two EOS cameras, the Elan/100 and the A2/5, have three-position zoom motors built into their internal flash units. It’s this zoom capability that explains why the Elan/100’s built-in flash has a maximum guide number of 17 at 80mm. When the flash isn’t zoomed out it has a guide number of 12; typical for a camera’s built-in flash. Canon have not carried this feature through to any later bodies, however. Presumably the expense and bulk of the zooming mechanism were deemed to outweigh the benefit of improved guide numbers.

The primary disadvantages of a zooming flash unit are that the zoom motor makes a loud buzzing noise when adjusting coverage angles and that the flash head has to be larger to accommodate the motor.

Flash units with motorized zooming heads:
Speedlites 300EZ, 420EZ, 430EZ, 540EZ, 380EX, 420EX, 430EX, 550EX, 580EX, 580EX II.

John, a big part of where flash is and isn't allowed is safety, but another part is etiquette and tradition. The IHSA rules do not specify which sports allow flash - they only say it is allowed, dependent on the host school's approval.

Authorized news media representatives, who have identified themselves to the host school principal (or designee) may be permitted to use electronic lighting equipment throughout the course of a given activitfixed positions and/or 2) electronic attachments mounted to a camera.

One can make the safety argument about baseball, but this logic is contradicted by hockey, which is every bit as fast and has an every-bit-as-dangerous very hard thing being hit/shot/passed at high velocity, yet flash and strobes are used all the time when shooting hockey. However, it is universally accepted that artificial light isn't used in baseball, gymnastics, sometimes volleyball, frequently for cheer, often for indoor swimming, and a few other sports I'm forgetting, therefore I don't use it.

One of the bid reasons why I almost always use bounced flash is to minimize the perception of distraction. The other is that I like the look of bounced flash/strobes more, but that's subjective.

Having strobed or flashed well over a hundred events in the past few years (football, basketball, hockey, wrestling, soccer, lacrosse, judo), I can tell you I have had only had one complaint, and this was from the coach of a youth football team that was getting their butts kicked and the coach was using my flash as an excuse. I wanted to ask him why the flash wasn't bothering his opponent, but knew enough to cease and desist once his complaint had been registered.


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asysin2leads
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May 11, 2008 05:18 |  #7

dmwierz wrote in post #5501369 (external link)
First of all, this is simply an erroneous statement.

Ok, I concede to the fact that my statement was an over generalized statement. Yes, I've used flash w/ 70-200 and it's been effective


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MJPhotos24
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May 11, 2008 14:17 |  #8

Do you want to be responsible for a kid getting injured? Personally I have pretty good vision, including peripheral where right now I'm watching tv at a 90 degree angle to this monitor seeing Indiana Jones running down an alley but staring at this screen, hey look a monkey. Anyways, for kids with good/sensitive vision you're just begging for them to get distracted and hit, it's not worth anyones photo for that to happen and it might be a rare occurence but once is too many times IMO. When I played and someone used flash I told the ump to get them to stop, I needed to read the ball off the bat not someone using a flash...I will disagree with Dennis big time on that it's just a perception as I've had it happen almost taking a liner off my nose cuz some idiot with a high powered flash shot at the wrong time when I was playing and ended up on my backside defending myself from the liner instead of catching it cuz I got a burst of flash in my eyes.

Hockey is a sport where the head is kept down for the most part and strobes light from above and are not as noticable as direct flash - parents are also shooting over the glass most the time and again, head is down, light is above - have to remember most people are trying to get "under the cap" to get faces in baseball so they're shooting directly into there eyes. I was not allowed to even attempt to use direct flash in hockey and the one time I tried in volleyball (at the request of the coach) 3 players started complaining so I went to ambient after two shots (I told the coach it would distract and she didn't believe me). Strobes are a whole different scenario as they light different than direct; football, soccer, and the such are different because they're not trying to pick up a small ball at high rates of speed. Gymnastics, cheer same thing, a slight distraction and a kid misses something and it could be a major injury - the "perception" is there for good reason, it didn't just happen out of nowhere. Volleyball the game is played in the air, with the girls/guys looking up so it can get distracting as well and having coached the sport for several years one millisecond distraction ruins the play as I've had girls w/ sensitive eyes (my setter) and she got blinded easy - heck even lookin into the wrong ceiling light she did so yea, no direct flash. Strobes you should be able to get away with if set up right - thousands of photogs do - problem is most of the people dont know what theyr'e doing.


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SnapLocally.com
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May 11, 2008 14:45 |  #9

I said it before in another thread, but in as much as sports go, I'm not a fan of photographers manipulating the lighting to serve their purpose. A competent photographer should know how to improvise with the available light given.


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jpwone
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May 11, 2008 15:05 |  #10

I have a very simple rule that i apply to all sports I shoot.

"If the light is good enough for the competitors to compete then its good enough for me to photograph"

Now I might get a much lower keep rate at times and sometimes a shot is spoilt because a key element is in heavy shadow or because of subject movement but I'll live with that.

The only time I use a flash for the sports I shoot is for team portraits and presentation shots.

There are times when it seems impossible to get a shot and if you shoot at some of the non-league football grounds around the UK there will be times when you wonder if the players really can see what they are doing . At times like these I put on a F1.4 or F2.0 lens and up the ISO to the limit and then wait for the action to come close enough to get a worthwhile shot. I effectively sacrifice coverage for quality. I cannot cover the whole field with a very fast lens but the images I do get will be technically good. Composition etc. is another story :-)


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JeffreyG
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May 11, 2008 15:14 |  #11

SnapLocally.com wrote in post #5503229 (external link)
I said it before in another thread, but in as much as sports go, I'm not a fan of photographers manipulating the lighting to serve their purpose. A competent photographer should know how to improvise with the available light given.

What?

I tend to not shoot sports with flash, mainly because I'm not willing / able to set up a good strobe set and I can usually get the shots I want via ambient light in any case.

But, don't think strobes or flashes are some kind of crutch used by poor photographers. For one thing, ambient light and shadows will often ruin some shots and there is no talent in the world that will somehow fix a heavily shaded face in bright sun. We all have to make do sometimes when shooting ambient.

Also, many professionals use flash to great effect all the time. Head on down to the Joe Louis Arena and watch the professionals. Canon 1D with 100-400L and strobes in the rafters. Ask them why and I bet they tell you that lenses like the 300/2.8 and 400/2.8 are still not fast enough for the speed of professional hockey players indoors and primes don't cover both the near face off circle and the far corner of the blue line acceptably.


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dmwierz
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May 11, 2008 16:42 |  #12

SnapLocally.com wrote in post #5503229 (external link)
I said it before in another thread, but in as much as sports go, I'm not a fan of photographers manipulating the lighting to serve their purpose. A competent photographer should know how to improvise with the available light given.

I second the comment of "what?" ??? I'm sorry, but it's comments like this that make me just shake my head. I do not know of a single pro shooter who would not choose to use artificial light when they need it and where it is appropriate and allowed. The results are not even close in so many ways.

I guess Robert Beck, John Biever, Bill Frakes, John Iacono, David Klutho, John W. McDonough, Peter Read Miller, Bob Rosato, Damian Strohmeyer and Al Tielemans are all less than competent photographers because they use strobes every single time they photograph basketball or hockey? If you don't know who these guys are, I'll give you a hint: their employer is frequently abbreviated by 2 letters.

Being a "competent" photographer means knowing when to shoot ambient and when and how to use artificial light to augment or actually overpower available light. Anyone who has real experience shooting real sports under real challenging conditions will understand the benefits of using strobes. There are REAL reasons why pro shooters use strobes in pro arenas.

Tell me how you deal with the color cycling of the lights? How do you achieve effective shutter speeds up to 1/3200s? How do you control your white balance? How do you ensure color saturation and "pop"? How do you get skin tones to look correct? How do you avoid shooting high ISO and higher noise? etc., etc.......

You can be a non-fan of the look of strobes (or flashes), but I will once again offer that when done properly, the "look" is minimized and what results is a sharp, well-exposed image that doesn't scream "FLASH". When someone is paying for you to come home with 50+ solid images from a game, or you are getting paid for the shots you take of a game, you may change your tune about flash.

FWIW, I shot a local HS football team throughout the entire season last year, using flash every game, and this team went on to win the Class 8A State Championship. I guess they did this in spite of me using flash, huh?

Originally Posted by JeffreyG:
Head on down to the Joe Louis Arena and watch the professionals. Canon 1D with 100-400L and strobes in the rafters. Ask them why and I bet they tell you that lenses like the 300/2.8 and 400/2.8 are still not fast enough for the speed of professional hockey players indoors and primes don't cover both the near face off circle and the far corner of the blue line acceptably.

Huh? Sorry, but this is another fallacy. It's got nothing to do with the lenses not being fast enough for the action. Pros shooting with f.2.8 primes or zooms and strobes frequently stop down to f/4.0 or even a bit smaller to increase image sharpness and increase depth of field to where more of the players are withing the DOF. Plus, the strobes will give you an effective shutter speed of way in excess of anything you could come close to even at f/1.8. And, pros also shoot with the 400 and 300 f/2.8. Trust me.

Originally posted by MJPhotos24:
I will disagree with Dennis big time on that it's just a perception as I've had it happen almost taking a liner off my nose cuz some idiot with a high powered flash shot at the wrong time when I was playing and ended up on my backside defending myself from the liner instead of catching it cuz I got a burst of flash in my eyes.

Mike, you have grossly misinterpreted my statements. I would never use flash for baseball, nor have I ever advocated doing so. However, I will stick to my statement that the vast majority of issues with flash/strobes (again, when used properly - have I said this enough times?) are more perceptual in nature than actual. Having used artificial light for football, basketball, hockey and wrestling, when asked after the event, the athletes didn't even notice the flash. I'm not saying it can't happen - just that with the exception of the one isolated incident I mentioned earlier, it hasn't in over a hundred games I've covered using artificial light. I very, very rarely shoot on camera flash, and when I do so, virtually never shoot direct. I also elevate my strobes well over the sight lines of the athletes, and bounce them off the ceiling and/or walls whenever I can. I will also use light modifier where appropriate to minimize or eliminate any direct components of the strobe's light.

And I also frequently read comments from people who just assume strobes will distract players, as in "how can you use flash? Won't that distract the players?" when in fact, they've attended or watched dozens of games where strobes were in use and even THEY didn't notice them.


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MJPhotos24
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May 11, 2008 17:16 |  #13

dmwierz wrote in post #5503781 (external link)
Mike, you have grossly misinterpreted my statements. I would never use flash for baseball, nor have I ever advocated doing so. However, I will stick to my statement that the vast majority of issues with flash/strobes (again, when used properly - have I said this enough times?) are more perceptual in nature than actual. Having used artificial light for football, basketball, hockey and wrestling, when asked after the event, the athletes didn't even notice the flash. I'm not saying it can't happen - just that with the exception of the one isolated incident I mentioned earlier, it hasn't in over a hundred games I've covered using artificial light. I very, very rarely shoot on camera flash, and when I do so, virtually never shoot direct. I also elevate my strobes well over the sight lines of the athletes, and bounce them off the ceiling and/or walls. I will also use light modifier where appropriate to minimize or eliminate any direct components of the strobe's light.

And I also frequently read comments from people who just assume strobes will distract players, as in "how can you use flash? Won't that distract the players?" when in fact, they've attended or watched dozens of games where strobes were in use and even THEY didn't notice them.

Selective reading on my part Dennis....Biggest thing is used properly, and think we can agree in this case it's not used properly and MANY don't know how to do it properly for any sport (yes this has been discussed way to many times on this board and it's all been said before a hundred or so times). Like with the volleyball coach when I tried it, I told her where I'm posistioned (only place to set up) it will be a distraction - she said give it a try, 3 players - 2 from her team, one from the other that it wasn't even pointed at- complained and I got to say "told ya so!" After the game she herself said "I only noticed the flash twice" - well that's cuz I only shot it twice. Now if that had been strobbed the right way they'd probably notice it because it's new to them - but bet money the girls on the bench and fans are the only one noticing - not the girls playing.


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JeffreyG
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May 11, 2008 18:00 |  #14

Huh? Sorry, but this is another fallacy. It's got nothing to do with the lenses not being fast enough for the action. Pros shooting with f.2.8 primes or zooms and strobes frequently stop down to f/4.0 or even a bit smaller to increase image sharpness and increase depth of field to where more of the players are withing the DOF. Plus, the strobes will give you an effective shutter speed of way in excess of anything you could come close to even at f/1.8. And, pros also shoot with the 400 and 300 f/2.8. Trust me.

I think you misinterpreted my statement Dennis. I understand that many pros use the 300/2.8 and 400/2.8, but the guys at the Joe seem to shoot the 100-400 exclusively. I think they do so because:
1. The zoom is better for hockey.
2. They prefer more DOF anyway, so a fast prime is not a necessity.
3. f/2.8 will not stop action given the speed and ambient light, so strobes are a given.

Once strobes are a given, stopping down for DOF (or just to use a slower zoom) becomes a non-issue. This seems like the logic path that those particular pros have followed.

In the end, my point is that deciding to use strobes is not the mark of some hack.

Incidentally I should mention one other point on the strobes. I've been to several games at the Joe and I rarely notice the strobes. None of my non-photographer friends have ever noticed the strobes. Only one game when I was seated near the corner (where one photographer was working) I started to watch him work. Then I noticed the strobes and then they started to bother me. But 99.9% of the people in there never saw them.


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dmwierz
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May 11, 2008 18:45 |  #15

Jeffrey - OK, gotcha. FWIW, I've never seen the 100-400 used at the United Center during the dozen or so games I covered there in the past season. Lotsa 70-200's (my weapon of choice - I don't rate using the strobes so I shoot 100% ambient), a 24-70 or two, a handful of 300 f/2.8's and 400 f/2.8's from the holes in the corners and up in the mezzanine.


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Photography-on-the.net Digital Photography Forums is the website for photographers and all who love great photos, camera and post processing techniques, gear talk, discussion and sharing. Professionals, hobbyists, newbies and those who don't even own a camera -- all are welcome regardless of skill, favourite brand, gear, gender or age. Registering and usage is free.