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Thread started 19 May 2008 (Monday) 21:35
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OdiN1701
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May 28, 2008 14:04 |  #91
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garbidz wrote in post #5612497 (external link)
I would be a bit careful about the "value for money" -statement.
For me, value for money is that I plug in a machine, turn it on and the machine churns what it is supposed to. French fries, espresso coffee, spam, etc.

To me, having to configure something is a negative value.
"Better value" in computing for me would be pretty much what Mac is giving to me nowadays. I do not mind the price if the product is what I want.

This is how free market economy works and I sort of like it.
I gladly let others hunt for exotic high-end components and get their thrills when their creation goes "hummmmm" in a big way.

It is their value judgement, I am not contesting it.
Just let me have my Mac.

My PC does just what it's supposed to do all the time. To say that a Mac "just works" out of the box any better than a PC is ludicrous. To think you don't have to configure anything on a Mac is also ludicrous. Last I checked, they couldn't read minds and connect to a network without any user input at all. They don't write documents or edit photos for you.

I don't get the whole "It's so easy to use!" statement from Mac users. It's no more or less easy than a Windows PC. I have used both. I find that a Mac is "harder" to use than Windows....mainly because I'm familiar with Windows. I don't know right where everything is on a Mac that I would want to get to - so I would have to hunt around a bit. Same can be said for a Mac user using Windows - they would be familiar with the layout of the Mac OS, but not Windows. The concepts and use of the operating system is exactly the same. Point, click, drag, etc. In that regards, both systems are equally as intuitive. It's just learning the inner workings that will take longer either way.

Of course people have preferences. You like your Mac - cool, use it. But I don't see spending additional money and getting less performance for that money than with a PC. I like fast, reliable systems. I get the best from my money by going with a PC.


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cory1848
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May 28, 2008 14:14 |  #92

OdiN1701 wrote in post #5611803 (external link)
What's wrong with it? I've been using MS operating systems since DOS. Been through Windows 3, NT4, Win95, Win98, WinMe (Never used that one on my personal system), Win2k, WinXP, and now I'm using Vista Ultimate.

I have not had any issues with the OS for the most part. Sure there are quirks here and there. But since I've been using Vista, I have had no issues whatsoever. It works great and is much faster than XP from what I have seen.

I have used the MacOS and Apple systems as well and they are no better. They crash too. But the only crashes that I have ever had with my PC's were related to hardware or drivers for hardware. Specifically bad memory (easy fix, replaced by manufacturer) and piss poor Creative drivers causing issues. I've never had Vista crash on me yet. XP only due to bad RAM. Otherwise ran perfect.

Ever try explaining how bios work to someone that has never really used a computer before? Then tell them that they have to learn that in order to put in a second hard drive....oh yeah, and hope that they still have there Windows registration code handy when the OS detects a new piece of hardware...

Right there is where I give up...why deal with all that crap when on my mac I can just plug it in and it recognizes it and works...

Dont get me wrong, I own a PC that I built and also a PC server with WHS on it...they are useful tools and I use them for what I need, however they are a pain in the ass to maintain so to speak...

For the average non computer geek, I can see why Apples advertising campaign really works...


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Village_Idiot
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May 28, 2008 14:24 |  #93

cory1848 wrote in post #5612704 (external link)
Ever try explaining how bios work to someone that has never really used a computer before? Then tell them that they have to learn that in order to put in a second hard drive....oh yeah, and hope that they still have there Windows registration code handy when the OS detects a new piece of hardware...

Right there is where I give up...why deal with all that crap when on my mac I can just plug it in and it recognizes it and works...

Dont get me wrong, I own a PC that I built and also a PC server with WHS on it...they are useful tools and I use them for what I need, however they are a pain in the ass to maintain so to speak...

For the average non computer geek, I can see why Apples advertising campaign really works...

When did you ever need the Windows registration code for installing new hardware. You must have the UU (unexperience user version).

Speaking of which, I still can't get my Mac to see my Linux server.


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OdiN1701
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May 28, 2008 15:01 |  #94
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cory1848 wrote in post #5612704 (external link)
Ever try explaining how bios work to someone that has never really used a computer before? Then tell them that they have to learn that in order to put in a second hard drive....oh yeah, and hope that they still have there Windows registration code handy when the OS detects a new piece of hardware...

Right there is where I give up...why deal with all that crap when on my mac I can just plug it in and it recognizes it and works...

Dont get me wrong, I own a PC that I built and also a PC server with WHS on it...they are useful tools and I use them for what I need, however they are a pain in the ass to maintain so to speak...

For the average non computer geek, I can see why Apples advertising campaign really works...

Once a BIOS is configured (and no, the user doesn't have to - it arrives configured in a boxed system), there is no need to ever go into it as a typical user. You can add a hard drive or CD/DVD drive, etc. and there is no need to go into it. The only time necessary would be if you are using a RAID setup - which would be for more advanced users anyway - it's not something you can just plug in. There are very, very few instances in which a typical user would even need to go into a BIOS screen. They are there for more advanced users and it gives those users access to configuration options not available to the common user. I've never seen this on a Mac - why not? I can take a 2.4GHz quad-core CPU, put a good heatsink on it and turn it into a 3GHz quad-core CPU by overclocking. That is just one benefit to a more advanced user - and even to less advanced users they are making things like that easily configurable.

Windows does not need reactivation at every little hardware change. In fact, it takes quite a bit for that to happen. Usually the replacement of a motherboard. I've even replaced motherboards with other similar motherboards, upgraded the HD (transferred using imaging software), updated memory and graphics cards and still no reactivation request.

That's another great thing about PC's. I can actually do meaningful upgrades to the system using industry-standard parts. You can't claim that with a Mac - new stuff comes out and you gotta chuck the whole thing. And many Mac's, especially the iMac's are very hard to work on compared to a typical PC. I once had to replace a CD drive in a Mac laptop. I had to completely disassemble the entire notebook - even remove the motherboard - to get it out. PC laptop? Push a lever, undo a screw, pull it out, put a new unit in. For the most part at least. Yes there are some models which aren't that easy. Typically the more slim/light/ultraportab​le. So when it comes time for a new PC upgrade - I can keep my hard drives, or whatever I'm not upgrading - add in some new stuff and have a much more up to date system without spending a lot. Try to do that with a Mac and just buy a new motherboard/CPU and put it in. Good luck.

On my PC I just plug it in, and it works. For the majority of items. Sure you may need a simple setup program or driver install for some things - but that's hardly an issue - you would need them for the Mac too.

I don't have to "maintain" my PC. It works just fine. You should learn about something a bit more before you start criticizing it.

The majority of problems that exist with PC's are user error - someone doing something they shouldn't - music/file sharing that ends up with them having adware or a virus - installing third-party programs which cause problems, etc. I know because I used to manage a PC shop - did that for almost 5 years. I've seen lots of issues with both PC's and Macs. The hardware issues happen with Macs just as with PC's, because hardware can and does fail.

You may say well..."Hey I don't get viruses on my Mac!" Well I don't get viruses on my PC and I haven't even had an antivirus program installed for years. It's all about practicing a little common sense. Yes there are more adware/viruses for PC's - but their purpose is to propogate to the largest amount of systems possible - with the popularity of Windows, it is obvious why it as a platform is targeted. I have seen Macs exploited time and again, a fix put out which is immediately exploited. It will probably always be the case with both systems as nothing is completely hack-proof.


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May 28, 2008 15:21 |  #95

Village_Idiot wrote in post #5612761 (external link)
When did you ever need the Windows registration code for installing new hardware. You must have the UU (unexperience user version).

Speaking of which, I still can't get my Mac to see my Linux server.

When I cloned my drive to a new larger drive, then set it to master, I needed to reenter that information. It was a pain in the ass as it saw it as a fresh install... Has nothing to do with being experienced or unexperienced...still had to enter the code in...and yes its a legal version.


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May 28, 2008 15:35 |  #96

OdiN1701 wrote in post #5612975 (external link)
Once a BIOS is configured (and no, the user doesn't have to - it arrives configured in a boxed system), there is no need to ever go into it as a typical user. You can add a hard drive or CD/DVD drive, etc. and there is no need to go into it. The only time necessary would be if you are using a RAID setup - which would be for more advanced users anyway - it's not something you can just plug in. There are very, very few instances in which a typical user would even need to go into a BIOS screen. They are there for more advanced users and it gives those users access to configuration options not available to the common user. I've never seen this on a Mac - why not? I can take a 2.4GHz quad-core CPU, put a good heatsink on it and turn it into a 3GHz quad-core CPU by overclocking. That is just one benefit to a more advanced user - and even to less advanced users they are making things like that easily configurable.


See my reply to the village idiot

Windows does not need reactivation at every little hardware change. In fact, it takes quite a bit for that to happen. Usually the replacement of a motherboard. I've even replaced motherboards with other similar motherboards, upgraded the HD (transferred using imaging software), updated memory and graphics cards and still no reactivation request.

That's another great thing about PC's. I can actually do meaningful upgrades to the system using industry-standard parts. You can't claim that with a Mac - new stuff comes out and you gotta chuck the whole thing. And many Mac's, especially the iMac's are very hard to work on compared to a typical PC. I once had to replace a CD drive in a Mac laptop. I had to completely disassemble the entire notebook - even remove the motherboard - to get it out. PC laptop? Push a lever, undo a screw, pull it out, put a new unit in. For the most part at least. Yes there are some models which aren't that easy. Typically the more slim/light/ultraportab​le. So when it comes time for a new PC upgrade - I can keep my hard drives, or whatever I'm not upgrading - add in some new stuff and have a much more up to date system without spending a lot. Try to do that with a Mac and just buy a new motherboard/CPU and put it in. Good luck.

See my post about Apple keeping hardware inline with the OS. They keep it that way for a reason - THe reason being so you dont have to be a PC tech to keep it running in tip top shape.

On my PC I just plug it in, and it works. For the majority of items. Sure you may need a simple setup program or driver install for some things - but that's hardly an issue - you would need them for the Mac too.

The only driver I have ever had to download for my mac was for my USB webcam. I have scanners, portable drives - both firewire and USB, USB cards and video cards and never needed a driver for those...Maybe I got lucky...

I don't have to "maintain" my PC. It works just fine. You should learn about something a bit more before you start criticizing it.

I have learned plenty about PCs. I was forced to for work related issues. I can build them, set up networks, etc... What have I learned? I have learned that I have enough stress in my life that dealing with all the crap that comes with my job, I shouldnt have to worry about my work machine... Thats where my Mac comes in..

The majority of problems that exist with PC's are user error - someone doing something they shouldn't - music/file sharing that ends up with them having adware or a virus - installing third-party programs which cause problems, etc. I know because I used to manage a PC shop - did that for almost 5 years. I've seen lots of issues with both PC's and Macs. The hardware issues happen with Macs just as with PC's, because hardware can and does fail.

You may say well..."Hey I don't get viruses on my Mac!" Well I don't get viruses on my PC and I haven't even had an antivirus program installed for years. It's all about practicing a little common sense. Yes there are more adware/viruses for PC's - but their purpose is to propogate to the largest amount of systems possible - with the popularity of Windows, it is obvious why it as a platform is targeted. I have seen Macs exploited time and again, a fix put out which is immediately exploited. It will probably always be the case with both systems as nothing is completely hack-proof.

You nailed it right on the head there... 99.9% of the population doesnt know or doesnt want to deal with all those little common sense issues...They are not computer geeks nor do they want to be...
People will file share, people will hack their machines, people will look at porn sites even with the virus pop up warning window flashing...they dont care, but they still want their computer they paid $299 for to work like the day they bought it...

This thread could go on forever but its far removed from the OPs reason for posting it. Maybe it should get back on track with that...


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OdiN1701
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May 28, 2008 15:40 |  #97
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cory1848 wrote in post #5613056 (external link)
When I cloned my drive to a new larger drive, then set it to master, I needed to reenter that information. It was a pain in the ass as it saw it as a fresh install... Has nothing to do with being experienced or unexperienced...still had to enter the code in...and yes its a legal version.

I've done that procedure with literally hundreds of systems and never had to do a reactivation. There is no way it would see it as a "fresh" install as it wasn't - unless the cloning software ran sysprep on the drive or something similar. What cloning software was it?


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May 28, 2008 15:42 |  #98

I love my Macbook Pro. Although I have the 1st gen with the heat and noise issues, I haven't had any problems with mine.

My manager couldn't understand why I spent so much money on it, especially since her daughter just got one for around $1000 (windows based)..... within a month or so the thing was having problems and barley worked. I've had mine 2 years with no problems. (I will agree that Apple priced are ridiculous).

PCs CAN be good and last a long time, if the user knows how to take care of it. The thing is....90% of the population don't. Macs are for the people that want their computer to just work, with little to zero maintenance.

The learning curve for me took less than a week. Sure, it'll be hard to get used to (especially from working on PCs for how ever many years) but it's like going from riding a bike to driving a car..... of course it'll be *hard* at first, because it's different. But, you get used to it and enjoy it.

After growing up on a PC and switching to Mac 3 years ago....I will remain to be a Mac user from now on.


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May 28, 2008 15:59 |  #99

OdiN1701 wrote in post #5613182 (external link)
I've done that procedure with literally hundreds of systems and never had to do a reactivation. There is no way it would see it as a "fresh" install as it wasn't - unless the cloning software ran sysprep on the drive or something similar. What cloning software was it?

Norton's Ghost...


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OdiN1701
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May 28, 2008 16:02 |  #100
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cory1848 wrote in post #5613144 (external link)
See my reply to the village idiot

It has nothing to do with BIOS, etc....?

See my post about Apple keeping hardware inline with the OS. They keep it that way for a reason - THe reason being so you dont have to be a PC tech to keep it running in tip top shape.

You don't have to be a PC tech to keep a PC running in tip top shape. While I am very knowledgeable about PC's and can fix any problem with them - I do no maintenace or anything special to my PC. I use it. I browse the net, listen to music, edit photos and video. I do email, etc. I do all of the typical stuff. I do nothing special to keep it in any sort of shape. It works great without having to do anything like that. I don't understand where you are getting the idea that you have to. With a properly built and configured PC, there is no reason to have to do any sort of maintenance or special treatment to a PC any more than a Mac. If there is, you probably have a lower end, cheaper PC that wasn't built very well. Yeah they exist - but that's one trade off for having open standardizations which allow for the other perks such as ease of upgradeability, etc.

The only driver I have ever had to download for my mac was for my USB webcam. I have scanners, portable drives - both firewire and USB, USB cards and video cards and never needed a driver for those...Maybe I got lucky...

A lot of hardware for the Mac is based on a closed system - which is nice in one way (it usually is truly plug and play) but not as nice in the other (less competition for hardware devices - less variety in accessories/upgrades in some areas, etc.). Your video card may work, but without updated drivers you miss out on performance enhancements and the like which manufacturers put out on a relatively regular basis. Sure, I can put nearly any video card in my PC and it will work - there are unified driver sets these days, etc. However - if you put a newer video card in - it will work, but it won't work to its full poetential because the current software which is running the new hardware has no idea how to properly use the new hardware. That is true for PC's and Macs. There would be no reason NOT to update drivers for a video card. It may work - but if the older software doesn't know about a nice new feature of the newer hardware - why was the newer hardware even bought?

I have learned plenty about PCs. I was forced to for work related issues. I can build them, set up networks, etc... What have I learned? I have learned that I have enough stress in my life that dealing with all the crap that comes with my job, I shouldnt have to worry about my work machine... Thats where my Mac comes in..

I don't have to worry about my PC at all. I did build it myself so I was sure to use quality components by companies that have good warranties. Most if not all parts have at least 3 year warranties. If there is hardware failure, I'm covered. But it runs great.

You nailed it right on the head there... 99.9% of the population doesnt know or doesnt want to deal with all those little common sense issues...They are not computer geeks nor do they want to be...
People will file share, people will hack their machines, people will look at porn sites even with the virus pop up warning window flashing...they dont care, but they still want their computer they paid $299 for to work like the day they bought it...

This thread could go on forever but its far removed from the OPs reason for posting it. Maybe it should get back on track with that...

If you get crap loaded on your Mac, it's not going to work just fine. Same goes with a PC. I have no sympathy for those who cannot use a little commmon sense.

And you can't tell me that Macs always "just work". They don't. I was forced to use Mac systems for graphics design classes in college. They couldn't keep up with the input from the Wacom graphics tablets which were hooked up to them. They crashed many times while being used. There was one system in there which nobody used because it was impossible. You could draw a line with a paintbrush using the graphics tablet and then sit back and wait. About a minute later, the line would appear on the screen. So don't try to act like Macs are perfect and nothing ever goes wrong with them and any average joe can use them without regard for common sense computing practices and they will still work the same as when they were purchased. It's simply not true.


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May 28, 2008 16:02 |  #101
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cory1848 wrote in post #5613322 (external link)
Norton's Ghost...

That is what I used, really hundreds of times. Never had that issue.


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May 28, 2008 16:06 |  #102
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SeanDinner wrote in post #5613193 (external link)
I love my Macbook Pro. Although I have the 1st gen with the heat and noise issues, I haven't had any problems with mine.

My manager couldn't understand why I spent so much money on it, especially since her daughter just got one for around $1000 (windows based)..... within a month or so the thing was having problems and barley worked. I've had mine 2 years with no problems. (I will agree that Apple priced are ridiculous).

PCs CAN be good and last a long time, if the user knows how to take care of it. The thing is....90% of the population don't. Macs are for the people that want their computer to just work, with little to zero maintenance.

The learning curve for me took less than a week. Sure, it'll be hard to get used to (especially from working on PCs for how ever many years) but it's like going from riding a bike to driving a car..... of course it'll be *hard* at first, because it's different. But, you get used to it and enjoy it.

After growing up on a PC and switching to Mac 3 years ago....I will remain to be a Mac user from now on.

I perform zero maintenace on my PC and it does "just work". Also I have used macs which "just don't work". Whole classroom of them with issues, crashing problems, etc. All while the professor went on and on about how superior they were than PC's for graphics design. I did most of my work on my laptop as it was faster.


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May 28, 2008 17:09 |  #103
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I guess this is my issue.

First - I don't care what anyone uses. Mac's and PC's both work just as good (IMO) and I'd say use what you're comfortable with. If you don't mind paying more for the Mac, cool. But I'd rather pay the same and get better performance, or pay less.

Here's the thing. So many Mac people are zealots about their stuff. I don't get it. Apple is the same way with their stupid "Hi I'm a Mac/Hi I'm a PC" commercials which are wildly inaccurate. I think Microsoft should make similar commercials and poke fun at all the Mac issues - and while they are at it, make up issues that don't exist. They probably would get sued or something over it, yet Apple continues to market in this manner. Perhaps Microsoft just doesn't want to lower themselves to that level, and I don't blame them.

There is too much of a superiority complex as a whole with the Mac community. This has been going on for ages. Ads claiming how much faster in Photoshop Macs are (which - when you find out the fine print it's just finding a combination of filters and such that works fastest for it and using that as a performance benchmark - false advertising IMO). I see lots of Mac users spewing all sorts of crap about PC's and acting like the Mac is Superiority Incarnate in every way.

Some things, Macs are faster at. Other things, PC's are. It's a wash. Especially today now that Macs run on the same Intel CPU's that PC's do. But to see the kind of ignorance I see displayed whenever Mac users talk about how horrible PC's are, etc. is just ridiculous and that is what I tire of. I see very little, if any, PC owners posting up about how horrible Macs are and how so much better a PC is. Neither is "better" - they each have ups and downs and it's up to each person to choose what they want out of a system.

Saying that PC's crash and Mac's "just work" is ridiculous. I've used both. Both crash. I don't have enough data to say that one crashes more frequently than the other, but in my experience with my PC systems - there are very very few crashes or issues. Mac users make it seem like running a PC is a chore and a lot of work and PC's need tons of maintenance vs. a Mac being pure bliss in tactile form. Utter lunacy.

I don't understand why Mac users can't just use their Macs and be happy. They have to bash PC's and get all superior about things and act like they are the path to true computer enlightenment and turn some computer into some sort of spiritual cult. It's very odd to me.

You know why I don't use a Mac? Besides the price and closed-system nature of the product - I hate the operating system. I've never liked it. That isn't to say it's bad or nobody can possibly like it. It just doesn't jive with me. Windows/DOS always has. And I like the open nature of PC's, the cheaper prices and the availability of lots of different brands of accessories which causes competition, thus the lower prices. That's really all there is to it. I can use Photoshop on either one. I'd just rather use a PC.

If you guys want to use a Mac, cool. But don't sit there and tell me that I have to do maintenance on my PC and it's hard to use and doesn't work like it should, or whatever. Because it's simply not true. You don't see me telling people that Macs are horrible and inferior to PC's, etc. Why do you guys feel the need to do that?


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May 29, 2008 00:35 |  #104

I don't want to fight my way through this thread, but I'll just say this.

I've bought or built a whole slew of PCs in my day, both desktops and laptops; I've still got plenty but let me tell you - I don't like any of them like I love the Macbook Pro.

Sounds like an ad, but seriously - there just isn't another laptop as good looking, with the right feature set out there for 2500.

I have no affinity to OSX, I still use Windows plenty even on the macs, but they're such nice computers! Apple's support is trash compared to pre-lenovo thinkpad or even dell business, but neither of those companies make a design piece with real horsepower (the m1330 came close, but its a piece of garbage that broke constantly).



Shooting with the Canon 5D & Nikon D300... and now the 20D!


  
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hitmanh
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Location: Cambridge, UK
     
May 29, 2008 09:33 |  #105

cory1848 wrote in post #5610579 (external link)
Go back and read the thread...and you will find where I stated how they are different... IF the hardware was not any different, why cant you install Windows on a Mac as the main OS? Its the same reason why you cant go get your regular Asus board and through it in a mac...Sure you could hack it, but then your asking for a machine that has the potential to fail...

Because the mainboard uses EFI rather than the older standard bios found in PCs, nothing more. Vista/XP and older versions of windows do not support EFI.
I'll repeat again, there is NOTHING special in the hardware.
The EFI can be hacked around, every single component can be swapped between the 2 systems.


"In Photography, as in all arts, the quality of the human imagination is the only thing that counts - technique, and technical proficiency, mean nothing in themselves." CLARENCE JOHN LAUGHLIN
www.hitmanh.com (external link)
40D and some luck

  
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